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Author Topic:   Marriage is a civil right in the US
RickJB
Member (Idle past 5101 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 50 of 304 (317497)
06-04-2006 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
06-04-2006 4:52 AM


Re: Two things, Miss Faith, if you please.
faith writes:
Your comparison of normal people with abnormal people is bogus.
Homosexuals are normal people.
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 06-04-2006 4:52 AM Faith has not replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 5101 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 51 of 304 (317499)
06-04-2006 5:10 AM


It's worth noting that as yet no one has come up with a definition of marriage over which to argue!
I myself see marriage as a means of establishing familial legal ties with another individual who lies outside the family structure.
For all practical purposes marriage has absolutely nothing to do with God so all religious precedent is, to my mind, utterly irrelevent.
If we leave aside all questions of morality and religion, why should two consenting adults not be allowed to establish such legal ties?

RickJB
Member (Idle past 5101 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 67 of 304 (317550)
06-04-2006 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by iano
06-04-2006 8:56 AM


Re: It's coming out, finally, isn't it faith?
I understand and accept your points, but seeing as my general reply post on the last page was ignored I thought I might ask someone directly about definitions of marriage....
We are arguing about something for which we have yet to agree a definition!
For myself, as I have previously stated, the key practicality of marriage is that it enables two individuals to establish famlial legal ties. I pulled this definiton from Merriam Webster:
merriam webster writes:
1 a (1) : the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law. (2) : the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage
Now this definition makes no mention of morality or religion. On the other hand some religious people like to see marriage as a "union before God" and from this comes their objection to homosexual "marriage".
Now, leaving aside religion, morality, or what constitutes "normal" behavior, should two people, if so inclined, be barred from setting up some sort of legal relationship?
Edited by RickJB, : Tags.
Edited by RickJB, : Typos.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by iano, posted 06-04-2006 8:56 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by iano, posted 06-04-2006 9:49 AM RickJB has replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 5101 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 71 of 304 (317562)
06-04-2006 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by iano
06-04-2006 9:49 AM


Re: It's coming out, finally, isn't it faith?
I know where you're coming from, but the surely the law is a good place to find common ground?
If two homosexual men have spent their lives together surely they should have some say in medical or inheritance cases?
As far as im concerned people get married for all sorts of reasons according to the customs of all sorts of faiths. However, the one thing that links them all (especially in a modern society) are the legal rights and obligations that come with them.
If two gay people wish to conduct a ceremony that binds them together legally then why should that be a threat to anyone's relgious customs?
Marriage is not the preserve of any one faith or custom.
Edited by RickJB, : Typos.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by iano, posted 06-04-2006 9:49 AM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 06-04-2006 12:48 PM RickJB has replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 5101 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 85 of 304 (317657)
06-04-2006 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
06-04-2006 12:48 PM


Re: It's coming out, finally, isn't it faith?
Okay,
But what do you define as marriage?
If I ever get "married" I'll most likely be in a registry office with a few friends and family. It will be a civil "marriage" with no religious content.
Now I'm not homosexual, but to what extent does even my idea of "marriage" tally with yours?
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 06-04-2006 12:48 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Faith, posted 06-04-2006 4:45 PM RickJB has replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 5101 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 91 of 304 (317673)
06-04-2006 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Faith
06-04-2006 4:45 PM


Re: It's coming out, finally, isn't it faith?
Okay, but considering that many cultures have their own marital traditions, in what way would non-traditional, gay civil marriages in secular culture threaten your beliefs?
For some, like yourself, there is a religious dimension to marriage. For others that dimension simply does not exist...
Edited by RickJB, : Typos.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Faith, posted 06-04-2006 4:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Faith, posted 06-04-2006 5:20 PM RickJB has replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 5101 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 130 of 304 (317791)
06-05-2006 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Faith
06-04-2006 5:20 PM


Re: It's coming out, finally, isn't it faith?
faith writes:
This is about my JUDGMENT as to what is good for SOCIETY AT LARGE
Belief, judgement, whatever. Your views as to what constitute marriage or good society are not the final word on the matter!
Marriage in many forms has been interpereted in many different ways by many different cultures. Same sex marriage is, on the whole, a modern phenomenon, but there have been incidences of limited same sex marriage in Chinese and Greek culture in the past.
I certainly don't agree that same-sex marriage is a threat to the "integrity of a society". A combination of common law and a stable economy is what truly holds a society together. If homosexual unions are bound by the same laws as other unions then where lies the problem?
But I'm a litle confused. You yourself have said that homosexual pairings should be allowed some form of legal status. Is this not, by modern definition, the true meaning of marriage?
Edited by RickJB, : Typos.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Faith, posted 06-04-2006 5:20 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 06-05-2006 5:10 AM RickJB has replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 5101 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 139 of 304 (317806)
06-05-2006 5:15 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Rob
06-04-2006 6:50 PM


Re: Faith is wrong
First of all you are twisting Lewis's words to into a context beyond their original scope. Exactly how does homosexual marriage make a society less brave or honest?
Secondly, an appeal to some form of "eternal morality" is false since homosexuality is, and always has been, an element of human existence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Rob, posted 06-04-2006 6:50 PM Rob has not replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 5101 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 163 of 304 (317867)
06-05-2006 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Faith
06-05-2006 5:10 AM


Re: It's coming out, finally, isn't it faith?
faith writes:
They can make contracts and covenants between each other as they please, disown their natural families in favor of each other or whatever, without having anything remotely like a marriage involved in it as far as status goes.
This is somewhat contradictory. Either they should have legal rights like those of marriage or they shouldn't. Or do you think there are some legal rights that should be withheld?
I still don't understand what you think marriage IS. Take away religion and tradition and you have nothing more than a secular legal contract between two individuals!
Marriage is defined as a consensual and contractual relationship that is recognized by secular law. Given that definition, and given that you agree that homosexual relionships should be legally recognized, then one must conclude the you are in favour of gay marriage, not against!
This is why I am asking what you mean by marriage? If you mean something based on, say, Christianity then you must remember that marriage is not common to, nor ultimately defined by any one religion or doctrine....
P.S. Why do you think homosexuals would have to "disown their families"?
Edited by RickJB, : Typos.
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 06-05-2006 5:10 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Faith, posted 06-05-2006 6:55 PM RickJB has replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 5101 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 221 of 304 (318082)
06-05-2006 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Faith
06-05-2006 6:33 PM


Faith, do you have any response to my comments in message 163?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Faith, posted 06-05-2006 6:33 PM Faith has not replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 5101 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 237 of 304 (318110)
06-05-2006 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Faith
06-05-2006 6:55 PM


Re: It's coming out, finally, isn't it faith?
faith writes:
Why should they benefit from their unnatural relationship when singles must go without such benefits?
Why should heterosexual couples benefit from their relationship when singles must go without such benefits? What's the difference?
faith writes:
I'm trying to think of ways to accommodate the most common complaints that they say marriage will cure without the slightest concern about the nature of the relationship.
But I'm still having trouble indentifying exactly what line you refuse to cross and for what reason. You agree that at it's core marriage is a legal contract. So why should homosexuals be barred from making this contract? Homosexuality is not illegal, so why shouldn't their relationships be legally recognized?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Faith, posted 06-05-2006 6:55 PM Faith has not replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 5101 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 238 of 304 (318111)
06-05-2006 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Faith
06-05-2006 6:55 PM


Re: It's coming out, finally, isn't it faith?
Double post.
Edited by RickJB, : Double post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Faith, posted 06-05-2006 6:55 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Faith, posted 06-05-2006 7:43 PM RickJB has replied

RickJB
Member (Idle past 5101 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 256 of 304 (318201)
06-06-2006 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Faith
06-05-2006 7:43 PM


Re: It's coming out, finally, isn't it faith?
faith writes:
For one thing, because women have historically needed the protection and support of men.
Leaving aside the gender assumptions at work here, what difference does physical strength make to an individual pitted against the laws of the state? Laws exist to organize society around a common set of rules so that the need for violent struggle is negated.
faith writes:
Where did I say that marriage is a "legal contract?" It's a cultural institution.
Marriage is, as I have shown, defined as a legal contract. This remains the case over and above and religious or cultral meanings you may attach to it.
faith writes:
This is a CULTURAL thing.
Ah, but you are talking about your culture! Culture isn't a singular, monolithic, eternal state. There are a multitude of cultures at work in any given society. Futhermore, culture is subject to constant change. Even a long established religous culture like Christianity can very easily be shown to have ungergone massive change over the past 2000 years.
faith writes:
But that's between them alone, and it does not involve the whole society.
But homosexuals ARE a part of society and like it or not they play huge role in its existence.
Edited by RickJB, : Typos.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Faith, posted 06-05-2006 7:43 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Damouse, posted 06-06-2006 11:05 PM RickJB has not replied

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