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Author Topic:   When Fascism Comes To America
Phat
Member
Posts: 18349
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 47 of 303 (907505)
02-24-2023 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by xongsmith
02-24-2023 3:40 PM


Re: Forgiveness
xongsmith writes:
But wouldn't that deprive the rest of us a chance to form a cheering crowd lining the streets?
Any excuse to throw a party!

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 Message 44 by xongsmith, posted 02-24-2023 3:40 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18349
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 48 of 303 (907506)
02-24-2023 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Taq
02-24-2023 3:42 PM


Re: Forgiveness
Crazy land? Isn't that the town that Mayor Pete used to run?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Taq, posted 02-24-2023 3:42 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18349
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 56 of 303 (907530)
02-25-2023 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Tanypteryx
02-24-2023 4:39 PM


What Is Deregulation
Tanypteryx writes:
I don't remember them proposing anything that didn't intentionally fuck a bunch of Americans and line their own pockets.

Do you remember them deregulating the railroads under Turd?
When I read this, I had to find out what happened to the railroads. (Ask jar...im naive about a lot of basics)
I found this website: Rail Deregulation in the United States
So I read:
Rail deregulation in the United States is a good example of how a policy shift can produce significant changes in the economic health of an industry, and how its structure may be changed.(...)
So i'm thinking of my "Mayor Pete" comment and of how my conservative pro-Trump friend hates Pete. (regarding the chemical spill. )
This is all like being in class!
The Geography of Transport Systems:
In the United States, the rail industry has since its inception been operated by the private sector. However, because of their importance, their fixedness as well as their monopoly in several regions, the rail industry became early the object of public scrutiny and political intervention. The railroads began to be seen to operate the service in the public interest, and therefore have been bound by certain government regulations. The policies that developed over the first 100 years of rail operations were intended to prevent a monopoly and maintain open access.
The article goes on to mention several key points, none of which I knew anything about prior to doing my research. Such as:
  • Railroad Revitalization and Regulatory Reform Act of 1976
  • Staggers Rail Act of 1980.
    Being a Union guy, I was paying close attention when my source said
    quote:
    Operating costs were reduced significantly by staff reductions. Contracts with the unions produced agreements to remove the brakemen from trains, thereby doing away with one third of the personnel required for train operation and removing the need for cabooses. Other concessions, such as hours of work and daily distances crews are allowed to operate, have significantly improved productivity.
    With the release of regulatory control over rates, the railroads could begin charging market rates, and because they were allowed to enter into confidential contracts, they had greater flexibility in negotiating with large volume shippers. This introduced more competition between the modes and led to lower rates overall.

    Laying off people is an example of "fucking a bunch of Americans"...so im still trying to understand what deregulation even means. I DO vaguely remember something about Reagan and the air traffic controllers, and jar and I have discussed the deregulation of the power companies and utilities. But its all new to me.

  • This message is a reply to:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18349
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 63 of 303 (907547)
    02-25-2023 3:53 PM
    Reply to: Message 62 by jar
    02-25-2023 3:42 PM


    Re: What Is Deregulation
    That is a long list but I will read it and note the implications. Was that an attack by Trump because he was Trump or was it backed by Conservatives in the interest of smaller government? Doesnt Trump use the euphemism of "draining the swamp"? Ive never really understood what pro Trump folks saw the "swamp" as representing. I *do* understand the concept of smaller government bureaucracy, but certainly not if it hurts people.

    This message is a reply to:
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    Replies to this message:
     Message 64 by jar, posted 02-25-2023 4:40 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 65 by xongsmith, posted 02-25-2023 6:41 PM Phat has replied
     Message 68 by jar, posted 02-25-2023 7:20 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 71 by Theodoric, posted 02-25-2023 11:29 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18349
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 72 of 303 (907591)
    02-26-2023 5:47 AM
    Reply to: Message 70 by jar
    02-25-2023 8:31 PM


    Making Stuff Up And Then Stopping
    Phat hears what he wants to hear, creates the Jesus he wants, creates the God he wants, and then stops.
    We all tend to hear what we want to hear. You and ringo both accuse me of creating the Jesus whom I want, but I call bullshit. Jesus, if Jesus exists, showed up long before you or I were anything more than a glimmer in our Dad's eye. GOD, God, or god is a bit more complex. One can wander all over the map in the Comparative Religions classroom with that one! And why would I ever stop? If you manage to tie me up in a given argument, I always have ten more somewhere on the forum to pick up with and continue to think about.
    Answer me this. How often have you made an argument supporting what you don't want to hear or believe?
    Sometimes I think you want me to tell Jesus to get lost only so I have to work harder for my arguments!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 70 by jar, posted 02-25-2023 8:31 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 75 by jar, posted 02-26-2023 7:58 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18349
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 73 of 303 (907592)
    02-26-2023 5:52 AM
    Reply to: Message 69 by AZPaul3
    02-25-2023 8:07 PM


    Re: What Is Deregulation
    AZ writes:
    Religious thinking; a poison to humanity, a mainstay of the conservative mind.
    So who runs the universe in your mind? Electricity? The Big Electron?
    But lest we get too far off-topic I digress.
    jar jar binks writes:
    ...the utter inability to think or comprehend
    No Comprende!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 69 by AZPaul3, posted 02-25-2023 8:07 PM AZPaul3 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 76 by AZPaul3, posted 02-26-2023 8:00 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18349
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 74 of 303 (907593)
    02-26-2023 6:29 AM
    Reply to: Message 65 by xongsmith
    02-25-2023 6:41 PM


    Overhauling The GOP
    Phat writes:
    I *do* understand the concept of smaller government bureaucracy, but certainly not if it hurts people.
    xong writes:
    Now you may understand why I have no forgiveness for them. They are sadists, vicious greedy assholes who need to be gunned down before they kill any more of us.
    What do you have against rich people? And how are they killing us? By exercising their right to keep what they have???
    Lets do a bit of homework together. I will try and quote enough of this to arrive at a consensus.
    What is the definition of “small government” according to the Republican Party?
    Among the best answers:
    Stack Exchange:
    I don't believe you will find an 'official' platform for or definition of 'small government' within the GOP; the phrase is a neoliberal buzzword more than an actual set of policies. Republicans began using the phrase 'small government' regularly back circa the 1980s, adopting it from Libertarians and Free Market economists (both of which were comparatively prominent in the party in that era). The general idea was that government should maximize efficiency and liberty, i.e.:
    • The elimination of government waste and pork
    • The reduction of government intervention in the private sector to some necessary minimum
    • A shift from public services to private enterprises
    • Resistance to international activities — military actions, pacts and treaties, international organizations — in favor of private economic solutions
    But even back then, the concept was a political ideal, not overly burdened with specific details or implementations. A nice ideal, or at least an interesting one, but not one that was philosophically or pragmatically developed.
    Fairly quickly, however, the 'small government' ideal became entangled with latent segregationist, McCarthyist, and Christian nationalist ideation. Even in Reagan's era, the GOP used the ideal to launch attacks on the welfare and social safety net systems — invoking images of 'welfare mothers' and 'young bucks' (Reagan's term; a slur for black men) living high on purloined tax dollars — and to oppose federal education mandates that prioritized science over religious teachings. The 'small government' rubric lost any connection to the ideals of efficiency or liberty. It became a catchphrase for the preservation of the status quo and the defense of powerful entities against the greater communities they existed within.
    Republicans in general now:
    • Denounce the wastefulness of social security while demanding ever-increasing expenditures in law enforcement and military sectors (which supports this threads topic)
    • Reject regulations on private industry, while also rejecting public concerns about pollution and toxic waste
    • Assert the privacy and individual rights of religious groups and political elites while attacking the privacy and individual right of women and minority groups.
    In the modern GOP, the concept of 'small government' is inseparable from anti-Democratic, anti-progressive, and anti-liberal agendas. It has lost all but the most specious connections to the original Libertarian ideal and only serves to justify an assortment of extremist positions.
    I doubt the GOP is willing to formulate a proper 'small government' platform or definition because:
    It is unlikely they could craft a platform that would satisfy all the ways the term is currently used in conservative dialog, at least without appearing completely schizoid
    Creating such a platform or definition would commit the GOP to a particular agenda which would
    • open a framework for discussion and negotiation that they fear the Democrats could leverage, and
    • limit the usefulness of the term for invoking and justifying political animus among their constituents
    The modern GOP doesn't seem to want 'small government' to be an accessible ideal or practical policy point. They want the phrase to be a trigger for outrage that is as generally applicable as possible. They want the term defined in the gut, not in the head; laying out a platform would only spoil its emotional impact.

    Personally, I think that division in American Politics needs to end. Talking about throwing things away, we (the people) need to throw away both major parties and start from scratch. We can start with the GOP to be fair.
    Do you have any ideas about what we should replace it with? Or could we simply have one party? Ringo says that Canada has five.

    The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18349
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 79 of 303 (907610)
    02-26-2023 9:52 AM
    Reply to: Message 75 by jar
    02-26-2023 7:58 AM


    Re: Making Stuff Up And Then Stopping
    jar writes:
    Shall I continue?
    No, I get the point. I suppose I shouldnt be afraid of the evidence. IF God exists, God exists regardless of any evidence that God does not exist.
    And at that point, I jump ship and swim towards my belief. It is as warm and comfortable as a giant Teddy Bear.
    I refuse to critically throw away every comforting thought and belief that I hold.
    If it were somehow proven to everyone that God did not exist, I would find little comfort in this AI-infused politically diverse world.
    And I wouldn't trust nonbelievers.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 75 by jar, posted 02-26-2023 7:58 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 80 by jar, posted 02-26-2023 11:24 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18349
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    (1)
    Message 81 of 303 (907615)
    02-26-2023 2:43 PM
    Reply to: Message 80 by jar
    02-26-2023 11:24 AM


    Re: Making Stuff Up And Then Stopping
    tough love from the old Texan! thanks

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 80 by jar, posted 02-26-2023 11:24 AM jar has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18349
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 84 of 303 (907666)
    02-27-2023 3:56 PM
    Reply to: Message 83 by Theodoric
    02-27-2023 9:18 AM


    Re: racism
    Last night at work. We had numerous shoplifters. All of them were unique. There was no profiling. You have no idea what my job entails nor the challenge for a parent. I dislike racism more each day. So...a black man came in the store, I did not see him come in and I pay no attention to color when guests enter the store. It is late. 10pm. He comes up to me and says (out of the blue) y'all better quit watching us. I remained silent because I watch anyone whom I feel like watching and do not discriminate based on color or race. He starts arguing anyway, telling me he is a respectable businessman and not a thug and how Safeway (not I) was racist. He told me to tell my Boss. I said simply "yes sir" and kept working. So then, he engages me again....(initiating the argument). Again I tried to be polite. Finally I asked him "what are you so mad about?" At that exact moment, the fire alarm on the back door was triggered and someone (don't know who) left with what was later told to me a full cart of groceries.
    Now, honestly, when people (of any color or race) steal, it does make me angry. Who do they think they are taking from my employer?
    |
    He left, grumblng about how he was going to talk to my manager. So here is my question to you, Theodoric. And I'm not trying to profile, but I think he distracted me while that cart packed up with groceries and left the store. Of course I could be wrong, and to accuse him of that would in fact be profiling. So I suffer in silence while the drug addicts, homeless cartel bosses, and woke activists condone shoplifting
    and tell the police to back off. Our store teaches us to be polite (equally polite and professional) to every customer no matter how they are dressed. And I do, to the best of my ability. Hey, I've seen white people steal. I've seen Asians or mixed races steal. Again, its not about color so I wonder why this guy was so pissed off.
    Footnote: A police officer came in and I was joking with him. I said, someday there will be drones pulling people over. What will society do then? Defund the Drones? The police officer was off duty by the way and not involved in any complaint with us.
    And my heart goes out to the homeless. It does NOT go out to organized crime rings that steal, sends people into the stores to steal, and then complain when we try and interrupt their business. Trust me, it happens. (I've never observed it personally, but I have my hunches.)
    I had a white-blond girl fill a cart to the brim with boostable items that normal people dont buy and then accuse me of offending her when I simply asked her for an ID. I felt really bad until the next day when she tried it again and got shut down by one of the managers. (we shut her down both times. She had stolen checks, it turned out.)
    Critics will accuse me of advocating more law and order and less compassion. You people run on a gas tank of pure feelings. Comments?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 83 by Theodoric, posted 02-27-2023 9:18 AM Theodoric has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 85 by jar, posted 02-27-2023 4:20 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18349
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 86 of 303 (907739)
    02-28-2023 1:47 AM
    Reply to: Message 85 by jar
    02-27-2023 4:20 PM


    So The Stores Should Let People Steal?
    When you fall back on totally meaningless Carny Barker and Snake Oil merchant phrases like "homeless cartel bosses, and woke activists" everyone here realizes you have found the answer you want from the source you like and completely stopped thinking.
    In what way have I stopped thinking? Tell me, Einstein. If you worked at a store and personally saw the same 20 people steal (you watched them leave with a full cart of Tide, for example) day after day after day, what else could you conclude except organized crime?
    I suppose that they could be "organized individuals" since they know precisely how to get away with their theft (and yes, it *is* theft, plan and simple!) and I also realize that the store has insurance mainly because they don't want anyone to get hurt and sue them.
    I said before that I feel for the homeless people that come in...in fact, many of us have been known to buy them a sandwich or a couple of meals BUT I am talking about repeat offenders who steal right under our noses because they know we can do nothing to stop them. Should I simply ignore this blatant social attempt to avoid working an honest job?
    Is anyone going to agree with me? If not, why am I the problem? What the hell do you propose that our society do in a way that doesn't hurt us?
    jar, addressing me writes:
    You are pitiful, pathetic, deplorable, despicable bigoted willfully ignorant, and dishonest.
    That's quite a list. Of course, I'm the bad guy. Kindly explain why.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 85 by jar, posted 02-27-2023 4:20 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 87 by jar, posted 02-28-2023 7:52 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18349
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 88 of 303 (907754)
    02-28-2023 7:59 AM
    Reply to: Message 87 by jar
    02-28-2023 7:52 AM


    Re: So The Stores Should Let People Steal?
    OK, fair enough. None of us want a police state, but we (many of my customers) see the merchandise leaving the store and nobody doing anything about it and it frustrates them because the higher prices are passed on to the consumer. Imagine if I told the customer that we need to support taxes to address the root causes, universal health care, higher minimum wages, universal child care, neighborhood mental health care, (and that) we need to reduce wealth disparity! They may wryly comment that the shoplifters themselves are reducing wealth disparity!! And the common reaction is that it is so unfair!
    Higher taxes are not a popular topic with the working class. They might accuse the business that they patronize of being soft on crime.
    You seem to suggest that higher taxes and more social programs will magically change the survival mindset that has warped the lower class. Heck, they likely look at me as rich simply because I'm white or because I have a job, or because I don't just look the other way when someone steals. Maybe its the way that I was brought up and maybe the people who steal do so because of the way that they were brought up. Comments?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 87 by jar, posted 02-28-2023 7:52 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 90 by jar, posted 02-28-2023 8:40 AM Phat has replied
     Message 93 by xongsmith, posted 03-03-2023 5:03 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18349
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 89 of 303 (907755)
    02-28-2023 8:31 AM
    Reply to: Message 82 by jar
    02-27-2023 8:41 AM


    My Neice
    Elizabeth is a teacher in Ferguson, Missouri. She is one of but a few white teachers in an otherwise black school district. She and my sister are more liberal than I am and we rarely discuss politics. Elizabeth feels sorry for her kindergarten students and buys them school supplies out of her own pocket. Many teachers do the same thing.
    She tells me that the problems with her students often start at home. there is a notable difference in cultural upbringing. We all are a product of our environment.
    My Dad used to get scolded by my Mother and Sister for acting like Archie Bunker. My sister accused her own father of being racist. He was but did not realize it I think..
    The one incident that set my sister and Father apart was when she was 11. It was the Day MLK got shot and killed. It is embarrassing, but I will share it if you want.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 82 by jar, posted 02-27-2023 8:41 AM jar has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18349
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 91 of 303 (907958)
    03-03-2023 2:31 PM
    Reply to: Message 90 by jar
    02-28-2023 8:40 AM


    Re: So The Stores Should Let People Steal?
    jar writes:
    There is no "Lower Class" and only a pitiful, pathetic, deplorable, despicable, bigoted, willfully ignorant, dishonest person would think there was a "Lower Class" or that wanting to survive warps someone.
    Is there an upper class? Are you suggesting that morally and ethically we should be a classless society? And how does "wanting to survive" in any way justify stealing? Is not one of the commandments not to steal? Im just sayin.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 90 by jar, posted 02-28-2023 8:40 AM jar has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18349
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 92 of 303 (907963)
    03-03-2023 3:35 PM
    Reply to: Message 30 by xongsmith
    02-16-2023 4:32 PM


    Re: Conservatives vs Liberals
    OK I will admit I lied. I did know roughly what a Gish Gallop was. Duane Gish and all that!
    When I came to EvC in 1993, my main pastime was discussing religion and apologetics. I never cared much how the earth appeared.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 30 by xongsmith, posted 02-16-2023 4:32 PM xongsmith has not replied

      
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