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Author Topic:   When Fascism Comes To America
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 1 of 303 (906661)
02-15-2023 7:30 PM


First Some Definitions
Around here we have had discussions regarding Socialism and Fascism. Critics on the ideological Right say that America is becoming too socialist and globalist. Critics on the Left say that America is becoming Fascist and authoritarian. My critics claim that I don't even know what these terms mean, so to begin lets agree on some definitions. I used Diffen.com, as they seemed to have rational definitions.
And to be more precise, I need to break down the difference between Socialism and Communism.
Communism vs Socialism One takeaway here is this quote:
Diffen:
Socialism is sometimes used interchangeably with communism but the two philosophies have some stark differences. Most notably, while communism is a political system, socialism is primarily an economic system that can exist in various forms under a wide range of political systems.
Looking rationally at this definition, I think it is silly to accuse the Left of being Communist, at least in the US. Socialism is another matter.
Diffen:
Class distinctions are diminished. Status derived more from political distinctions than class distinctions.
This would explain the insistence of the peanut gallery that the United States is devolving into fascism. What irritates me, however, is the emphasis on status being defined more from political distinctions than class(economic) distinctions. Socialists seem to insist that everyone agree on socialism and that private property, free enterprise with less government oversight, and economic distinctions be minimized.
Which leads me to ask, how does a guy get ahead? Must I be content to run with the pack and merely get my quota?? In addition, based on the chart, socialism advocates Freedom of religion, but usually promotes secularism.. I suppose I can concede this point since the United States was founded on this point....loosely. I don't like the idea that being of, by, and for the people is not really One Nation under God, but, rather, One nation under freedom of relativism and secularism. It becomes a slippery slope! Jefferson and the founders seemed to park Jesus at the door when it came to government. I'll begrudgingly concede this point since we have separation of church and state and we don't want to end up as a Theocracy!
Moving on...
Capitalism vs Socialism
Diffen:
Capitalism and socialism are somewhat opposing schools of thought in economics. The central arguments in the socialism vs. capitalism debate are about economic equality and the role of government. Socialists believe economic inequality is bad for society, and the government is responsible for reducing it via programs that benefit the poor (e.g., free public education, free or subsidized healthcare, social security for the elderly, higher taxes on the rich). On the other hand, capitalists believe that the government does not use economic resources as efficiently as private enterprises do, and therefore society is better off with the free market determining economic winners and losers.
The U.S. is widely considered the bastion of capitalism, and large parts of Scandinavia and Western Europe are considered socialist democracies. However, the truth is every developed country has some programs that are socialist.
An extreme form of socialism is communism.

Lets comment first before I get to the idea of Fascism.
I think that the United States is more politically and ideologically divided than at any time in our History.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by xongsmith, posted 02-15-2023 7:50 PM Phat has replied
 Message 4 by nwr, posted 02-15-2023 8:40 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2594
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 2 of 303 (906665)
02-15-2023 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
02-15-2023 7:30 PM


Phat begins new thread
Phat writes:
Which leads me to ask, how does a guy get ahead? Must I be content to run with the pack and merely get my quota??
Yes. Why do you want others to fall behind?

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 02-15-2023 7:30 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 02-15-2023 7:54 PM xongsmith has replied
 Message 5 by Theodoric, posted 02-15-2023 10:24 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 3 of 303 (906668)
02-15-2023 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by xongsmith
02-15-2023 7:50 PM


Re: Phat begins new thread
They need to learn to keep up through personal initiative rather than handouts. I'm for social services such as food stamps and welfare, but it all shouldn't simply be a blank check. But I don't think the progressives understand money or how it is actually created.
My dad worked for 20 cents an hour and was as poor as anyone today. He had no choice. Do you really think if he were given government assistance it would have helped us?
Teaching people that they are owed something and that they need to stand more for equality rather than personal initiative does nothing to help their culture in the long term. At best, they get to eat better for a year or two.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by xongsmith, posted 02-15-2023 7:50 PM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Theodoric, posted 02-15-2023 10:30 PM Phat has replied
 Message 12 by xongsmith, posted 02-16-2023 10:16 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 24 by nwr, posted 02-16-2023 3:50 PM Phat has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6414
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


(4)
Message 4 of 303 (906673)
02-15-2023 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
02-15-2023 7:30 PM


Re: First Some Definitions
Looking rationally at this definition, I think it is silly to accuse the Left of being Communist, at least in the US. Socialism is another matter.
It is also silly to accuse the left of being socialist. The left is a broad group. Yes, there are some socialists. But there are more pragmatists.
Which leads me to ask, how does a guy get ahead? Must I be content to run with the pack and merely get my quota??
You are letting your imagination run wild. You get ahead by means of a good education and a good work ethic. Where's the problem?
Socialists seem to insist that everyone agree on socialism and that private property, free enterprise with less government oversight, and economic distinctions be minimized.
That's more of your imagination running wild. Most of the left would like to see equal opportunity, which is not at all the same as equal outcome.
Oh, by the way, you do not believe in free enterprise. If you truly believed in free enterprise, you would be praising the shoplifters for being so enterprising.
I don't like the idea that being of, by, and for the people is not really One Nation under God, but, rather, One nation under freedom of relativism and secularism.
Christians often attack relativism. However, they are oblivious to their own relativism. Christianity is relativist.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9257
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(4)
Message 5 of 303 (906675)
02-15-2023 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by xongsmith
02-15-2023 7:50 PM


Re: Phat begins new thread
He buys into the Christian right-wing pecking order view of society. One's worth is directly related to the number of people you perceive as below you. Fuck everyone else I got mine.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by xongsmith, posted 02-15-2023 7:50 PM xongsmith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 02-15-2023 11:42 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9257
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(2)
Message 6 of 303 (906676)
02-15-2023 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
02-15-2023 7:54 PM


Re: Phat begins new thread
You are still an idiot.
Who is getting handouts?
Who gets a blank check?
You have shown absolutely no understanding of finance and economics, yet you still attack progressives on this issue.
Teaching people that they are owed something and that they need to stand more for equality rather than personal initiative does nothing to help their culture in the long term
What do you mean by their culture? Nice racist dog whistle.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 02-15-2023 7:54 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 02-15-2023 11:17 PM Theodoric has replied
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 02-16-2023 12:49 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 7 of 303 (906678)
02-15-2023 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Theodoric
02-15-2023 10:30 PM


Conservatives vs Liberals
You throw that word racist around like its a snarl word! You can't simply blame all of the economic problems of America on Racism and Discrimination. Its a cop-out.
Moving on...
Now lets examine Conservatives vs Liberals.
Diffen:
The epithet conservative or liberal is used to describe political and economic views and affiliations. The meaning of "conservative" or "liberal" could be different in different contexts - social, economic and political. They also differ in usage in different countries and over time. Conservatives versus Liberals
Political Views
(Right-wing, anti-federalist)- Prefer smaller government, less regulation, most services to be provided by the private sector in a free market, and a literal interpretation of the Constitution.
(Left-wing, federalist.)- Prefer more regulation and services like free universal health care to be provided by the government to all citizens.
***************************************
Economic Views Conservatives: Government should tax less and spend less. Cutting spending to balance the budget should be the priority. Higher income earners should have an incentive to invest (credits). Charity is the responsibility of the people.
Liberals: Government should provide more services to the less fortunate (like health care) and increase taxes if necessary. High-income earners should pay a larger percentage of their income as taxes.

*************************************
(I need to look up Federalist vs Anti-Federalist)
quote:
In U.S. history, anti-federalists were those who opposed the development of a strong federal government and the ratification of the Constitution in 1788, preferring instead for power to remain in the hands of state and local governments. Federalists wanted a stronger national government and the ratification of the Constitution to help properly manage the debt and tensions following the American Revolution. Formed by Alexander Hamilton, the Federalist Party, which existed from 1792 to 1824, was the culmination of American federalism and the first political party in the United States. John Adams, the second president of the United States, was the first and only Federalist president.
I always talk about banking and the Central Banks. It appears that the Federalists(modern Democrats) favored strong Central Banks and Federal oversight of national collective money. Anti Federalists(modern day Republicans) favored local government to manage local money. There are pros and cons to both approaches, but it appears to me that Federalist could someday morph into Globalist. I could be wrong, however. I'm still chewing on this stuff!
Now lets keep learning, shall we, phat?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Theodoric, posted 02-15-2023 10:30 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Theodoric, posted 02-16-2023 8:44 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 8 of 303 (906680)
02-15-2023 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Theodoric
02-15-2023 10:24 PM


Democracy vs. Republic
So I suppose in your world view Everybody gets a ribbon? Just for showing up? Just for being human? Does personal initiative mean NOTHING to you??
Now lets examine what this website says about a Democracy versus a Republic. I will readily admit that I don't always understand certain terms and concepts and that I need to study the meanings of words and concepts better. This thread is but a start, though doing this allows me to process my political views without swallowing everything I hear about in the media. In addition, it helps me to better define my beliefs and adjust them if necessary.
Diffen:
The key difference between a democracy and a republic lies in the limits placed on government by the law, which has implications for minority rights. Both forms of government tend to use a representational system — i.e., citizens vote to elect politicians to represent their interests and form the government. In a republic, a constitution or charter of rights protects certain inalienable rights that cannot be taken away by the government, even if it has been elected by a majority of voters. In a "pure democracy," the majority is not restrained in this way and can impose its will on the minority.
Most modern nations—including the United States—are democratic republics with a constitution, which can be amended by a popularly elected government. This comparison therefore contrasts the form of government in most countries today with a theoretical construct of a "pure democracy", mainly to highlight the features of a republic.
***************************
Philosophy
In a democracy, the community of people are considered to hold power over how they are governed. Kings and tyrants are seen as threats to the innate rights of the people. As such,all eligible citizens get equal say in decisions.
Republics are in opposition to ruler-ship by a single person. All eligible citizens get equal say in decisions through elected representatives. Unalienable rights of individuals are protected by law to safeguard against a majority abusing the minority

I believe more in individualism than shared collectivism though I support limited socialism (such as Social Security, fire and police departments, local trash pickup and limited government services. I am also not opposed to helping the poor and less fortunate, though I oppose higher taxes. Despite opposing higher taxes, I see this as an inevitable result of the more challenging and indeed difficult economic times that we as a nation are moving towards.
The United States tried isolationism before World War II and yet eventually could not be kept out of that war. The end of the war brought one of Ray Dalios cycles to a reset as the sun finally set on the British Empire and the Age of America ascended marked by Bretton Woods.
Having now a better understanding of the terminology used in defining economic and political systems, I am going to examine Socialism versus Fascism in the next post, paying close attention to the division in US politics and the accusation by some of you that Fascism is a threat in modern day America.
Before I do that, however, I wanted to highlight one other category that this website mentions.
Donald Trump versus Joe Biden(2020 platforms)
And we all know that. My critics accuse me of being pro Trump, but I will argue that based on the definitions in this website breakdown of liberal and conservative ideologies that I am conservative leaning moderate and that I NEVER voted for Trump. I DID vote for Joe Biden, though I consider his plans for expanding government and raising taxes to be something that the United States can no longer afford. I wish that there were a rational alternative to Trump. (My friend mentions Mike Pompeo). I don't know too much about him, but I hear that he is pro-Trump, so the Republican party needs a major overhaul.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Theodoric, posted 02-15-2023 10:24 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Theodoric, posted 02-16-2023 10:45 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 9 of 303 (906683)
02-16-2023 4:05 AM


Will Fascism Come To America?
Finally we are at the purpose for this topic. Diffen is a website that basically compares any two concepts in context. It is a bit like a dictionary on steroids. As an example, I typed in equality vs freedom. Here is what they say: Equality vs Freedom
Comparing the definitions listed, I see pros and cons in both concepts, though I like the idea that a republic protects individual rights while a democracy is more about equal rights...even at the expense of a given individual.
So lets cut to the chase...
Democracy vs Fascism
Reading that, I see little if any indication that Conservatives are eventually going to become Fascist.
Fascism vs. Socialism
Reading these comparisons, I don't get everyone's concern about Fascism in America.
Note some key comparisons:
Diffen:

Fascism: The union between businesses and the State, with the state telling the business what to do, with nominally private ownership. Corporatism in Italy, National Socialism in Germany. Central planning of National economy. Redistribution of wealth (Nazi).
Socialism: All individuals should have access to basic articles of consumption and public goods to allow for self-actualization. Large-scale industries are collective efforts and thus the returns from these industries must benefit society as a whole.

From what I've read so far, I would agree with neither extreme, although I see Fascist elements in both political parties. One thing is clear. My great fear has always been a one world government, and in order for such a beast to ever exist, the path to such a government would be socialist rather than Fascist. I reaffirm that I am a conservative-leaning moderate and will remain in that position until further notice.

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 02-16-2023 8:00 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(3)
Message 10 of 303 (906688)
02-16-2023 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
02-16-2023 4:05 AM


Re: Will Fascism Come To America?
Again Phat, you are simply not looking at any of the overwhelming evidence that's available.
Listen to what fascists like Desantis and Abbott are saying. Texas telling companies that they will not be allowed to bid on any State of Texas projects, services or supplies if they invest in clean energy. Florida interfering with Disney Corp policies. Trump saying he could simply tell corporations what to produce.
Listen to what these folk say. Look at what they do.
And you do know how silly bringing up the "under God" insertion is don't you. You do know that history; after all it wasn't stuck in the pledge all that long ago.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 02-16-2023 4:05 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 02-16-2023 11:32 AM jar has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9257
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(3)
Message 11 of 303 (906693)
02-16-2023 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
02-15-2023 11:17 PM


Re: Conservatives vs Liberals
Why don't you ever address the questions actually posed to you instead of a gish gallop of crap?
me writes:
Who is getting handouts?
Who gets a blank check?
You have shown absolutely no understanding of finance and economics, yet you still attack progressives on this issue.
PhatFaith writes:
Crickets
me writes:
What do you mean by their culture?
PhatFaith writes:
Crickets

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 02-15-2023 11:17 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 02-16-2023 11:48 AM Theodoric has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2594
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


(6)
Message 12 of 303 (906697)
02-16-2023 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
02-15-2023 7:54 PM


Re: Phat begins new thread
Phat writes:
They need to learn to keep up through personal initiative rather than handouts.
They aren't Handouts, they are Hands Up, and they are at bare subsistence levels and require jumping through all kinds of hoops to get.
I'm for social services such as food stamps and welfare, but it all shouldn't simply be a blank check.
A blank check??? A blank check would be a huge amount, not subsistence level. You could fill it in for a million dollars each time if it was truly a blank check. Nobody gets a blank check.
I don't think the progressives understand money
Whereas I KNOW you don't.
Do you really think if he were given government assistance it would have helped us?
Certainly.
Teaching people that they are owed something
I also agree that this is bad, but it's a gross mischaracterization.
At best, they get to eat better for a year or two.
Actually longer than that, if they keep the bureaucratic paperwork up.
So it's not a blank check, after all.
Keeping the paperwork up is almost as hard as working in a grocery store, you know. 20 cents an hour is very bad, even correcting for inflation and supposing he grew up in the Great Depression, like my parents did. You should be thanking your God for FDR!
standing more for equality rather than personal initiative does nothing
These are not a choice of one or the other - that is a false dichotomy. You should be encouraging both, hand in hand.
FDR's times made a vast improvement and set up the country with a great run (for white males at least), but then the corporatists fell into Greed and gradually, over the liberal Democrat party's objections, took back much of it away with tax loopholes and outright monopolies. They are still trying to "sunset" Social Security! They have hated what FDR accomplished when he wasn't winning WWII ever since.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 02-15-2023 7:54 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9257
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 13 of 303 (906698)
02-16-2023 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
02-15-2023 11:42 PM


Re: Democracy vs. Republic
his plans for expanding government and raising taxes to be something that the United States can no longer afford.
What are these plans?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 02-15-2023 11:42 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Phat, posted 02-16-2023 11:36 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 14 of 303 (906699)
02-16-2023 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by jar
02-16-2023 8:00 AM


Re: Will Fascism Come To America?
I see no overwhelming evidence that the people you mention are fascists. Thats your label. I see them as Republican Conservatives. Trump in particular often says outlandish things to grandstand and I would never vote him in, but your case for Fascism is weak. Do you have anything more substantive?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 02-16-2023 8:00 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Taq, posted 02-16-2023 11:48 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 15 of 303 (906700)
02-16-2023 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Theodoric
02-16-2023 10:45 AM


Re: Democracy vs. Republic
I'll admit that my statement has no actual data to back it up. I will argue, however, that our National Debt is growing and not shrinking. Do you see a plan to pay it down? How about even keeping within budget on the yearly deficit? Certain expenses are necessary, however...that much I will agree with. Both sides will argue about priorities and at this time I have no comment. All that I will say is that the United States has an appointment with reality and the hope is that they will arrange to pay their bills.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Theodoric, posted 02-16-2023 10:45 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Theodoric, posted 02-16-2023 12:09 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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