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Author | Topic: The "science" of Miracles | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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ringo writes: When have they ever found no explanations? As you know, we're playing the what if game, if you don't want to, just say so.
It's not an assumption. It's an observation. How can it be an observation, no miracles have yet been detected?
It's what scientists do. They propose explanations. But what if they can't?
Care to give any examples where scientists were completely stumped and could propose no explanations at all? What is it with you and this stubborn circular, repetitive stuff? We agreed about a thousand posts ago that so far no miracles have been found. We're now playing what if, or some of us are.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
ringo writes: I've already said it's a stupid game. That's my move. If you don't like it, throw the game board on the floor and run away. Ok. 'bye for now.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Agnostics don't exist. You either believe in god(s) or you don't. If you don't know whether you believe in god(s) or not, you don't believe in god(s).
Neither atheists nor agnostics nor deists nor theists have knowledge of god(s). If anyone had knowledge of god(s) we'd all have knowledge of god(s). If such knowledge existed it would be published in Nature and peer reviewed to death. All we have is knowledge of what we believe. Agnosticism is an invented cop-out to avoid a social and intellectual problems. /off rant. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Percy writes: Hume is arguing that past experience is proof that miracles can't exist. Hume is just doing what ringo is doing - defining away the argument. Like ringo, he's refusing the what if. It's only when you allow the what if that you can make any form of progress. If you disallow the concept there's nothing more to say.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: The Creator of the natural laws could certainly suspend them if He wanted to. Well that's certainly what believers in that sort of magic believe. The problem is that if this god thing ever did suspend natural laws we'd have evidence if it. But of course he never does so he's not playing or he doesn't exist. The other problem is that believers like you tell us that he suspends natural laws all the time. But strangely there's never any real world evidence of it. I'd say that's conclusive.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: Or of course believe those who were and try to tell you about it in the teeth of your refusal to believe, which you won't no matter what they say, as this thread amply demonstrates. That's correct, I'm not going to believe anything a believer says without evidence. Your primitive believes have been shown to be wrong time and time again.
The Bible gives plenty of witnesses to miracles but you rationalize them all away.
I would rationalise them away if their was anything rational about them. The bible is only evidence that someone - we don't even know who or even when - wrote down some stories. Nothing else.
You want "scientific" evidence of something that simply by its nature can't exist. Anything that happens in the natural world leaves evidence. You've spent fruitless years trying to tell us that with your flood nonsense.
The argument is ridiculously futile. I believe the Bible witnesses, you don't and really, that's all there is to it. Yup, but here you are again being futile.
So, no, we would NOT have evidence of a miracle if it occurred. Of course it would, anything that interferes with the natural world must, by definition, leave evidence - for example a faith healer would leave someone who was ill not ill. But they never ever do anything conclusive. Why not? Answer: because they can't.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
1.6etc writes: Hilarious... Atheist now being dogmatic about the non existence of agnostics. Yeh, hilarious but never-the-less correct.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
So at each of those time you're either a believer in god(s) or you're not. And when you say you're agnostic you also don't believe - if you don't know whether you believe, you don't believe. It's quite simple.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
1.6etc writes: If I do not know that any gods exist I am agnostic. No-one knows whether god exists or not. They can only believe it does or believe it doesn't. Some people believe god exists. They're theists. Some people believe god doesn't exist. Those people are atheists. Those people that say they don't know if they believe in a god, can't possibly believe in a god. Belief is active.
It really is quite simple. When you don't make the mistake of confusing knowledge and belief, yes it is.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
1.6etc writes: The word "agnostic" comes from Greek roots meaning "without knowledge." Yikes, who knew?!
And when you make the mistake of changing the definition of agnostic to suit your argument your are guilty of a fallicous argument called the definist fallacy. I'm not changing the definition of agnostic. I had hoped that was clear. I'm ignoring the word altogether as it's a Victorian invention that has no practical value. It was created as a socially acceptable excuse for non-belief.
Since the word agnostic means without knowledge and not without belief I will go with what the word means and not what Tangle thinks it means, thank you very much. Concentrate. Agnostic means without knowledge. My claim is that no-one has knowledge of god. What people do have is knowledge of whether they believe in a god or not. Believe is active, you either have it or you do not. Therefore those that say they don't know whether they believe or not, do not believe.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Taq writes: Christian agnostics would beg to differ. All sorts of people beg to differ. They do it for the same reason that those that invented the term agnostic did it in the first place - because they're uncomfortable accepting that they no longer believe in the religion they were born into. Agnosticism is not a real thing. It's a total invention. People believe or they do not. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Taq writes: Belief is described by atheism/theism. Agreed
A/gnostic is about the ability to gain knowledge. And as no-one can have knowledge of god, it's a useless term. All people can have knowedge of is whether they believe in a god or not. If they don't know whether they believe or not they don't believe.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Are we in the bonkers olympics or something?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
I suppose it's good that our hospitals have internet access but I don't see why should have to suffer for it.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Boatymacboatfaceangel. Gottabe.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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