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Author Topic:   The "science" of Miracles
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 363 of 696 (826752)
01-09-2018 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 362 by Percy
01-08-2018 5:28 PM


Re: Consensus
Why don't we do a poll?
When someone says to me, "......something, something was a miracle."
What comes to my mind is the laws of physics was somehow violated and suspended for xyz to occur.
It may not be the correct definition but that is what I have always thought was meant by the word miracle.
What is a alternative definition that is being used?

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Percy, posted 01-08-2018 5:28 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 367 by ringo, posted 01-09-2018 11:06 AM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(1)
Message 370 of 696 (826763)
01-09-2018 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 367 by ringo
01-09-2018 11:06 AM


Re: Consensus
Ringo writes:
What people are actually calling miracles - and in this case is confirmed as a miracle by the Roman Catholic Church - is not what we can't explain. It's what they can't explain.
I get that you do not believe miracles can exist.
I get that you seem to be of the camp that believes what ever has ever been deemed a miracle is simply something that has yet to be fully explained.
Given all that; humanity still does not KNOW if something can ever happen that will violate or suspend the laws of nature.
And if something does, bear with me here.... IF something does
would you be content to call that a miracle?
Will you break out in a rash and convulse on the floor if you use the word miracle?
Even in fiction miracles can't occur in your world? No deus ex machina for you.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by ringo, posted 01-09-2018 11:06 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 371 by ringo, posted 01-09-2018 11:41 AM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 372 of 696 (826768)
01-09-2018 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 371 by ringo
01-09-2018 11:41 AM


Re: Consensus
Ringo writes:
Nothing I've said in this thread has anything to do with whether or not I believe miracles can exist.
Do you?

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by ringo, posted 01-09-2018 11:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by ringo, posted 01-09-2018 11:49 AM 1.61803 has replied
 Message 374 by Phat, posted 01-09-2018 11:50 AM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(1)
Message 375 of 696 (826771)
01-09-2018 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 373 by ringo
01-09-2018 11:49 AM


Re: Consensus
Edited by Admin, : Narrow image width.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by ringo, posted 01-09-2018 11:49 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(1)
Message 388 of 696 (826806)
01-10-2018 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by Phat
01-09-2018 11:50 AM


Re: Consensus
Hi Phat,
I get what Ringo is saying. And I think I get what you are saying.
I think you may be conflating "science/physics" with "the laws of universe/nature".
Humans did not create the laws of nature, but they did create physics which is a way to explain how universe/nature operates.
If what we call a miracle happens that violates the laws of physics as we know it, then scientist will most likely incorporate this phenomenon into the known body of scientific work. The way the universe operates is being investigated. The language used to describe it is called physics and the way it is being investigated is through what is called the scientific method. Which is a self correcting method that renders all previous information subject to change. The universe will either give up all it's secrets or it wont.
Believe in your miracles Phat, believe in them because you choose to do so and for no other reason. Peace be with you.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by Phat, posted 01-09-2018 11:50 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(1)
Message 525 of 696 (828170)
02-12-2018 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 499 by Tangle
02-09-2018 5:49 PM


Re: Bridge Analogy Re-examined
Tangle writes:
Agnostics don't exist.
Hilarious... Atheist now being dogmatic about the non existence of agnostics.
I
Edited by 1.61803, : No reason given.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 499 by Tangle, posted 02-09-2018 5:49 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 527 by Tangle, posted 02-12-2018 4:51 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 526 of 696 (828171)
02-12-2018 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 516 by ringo
02-11-2018 1:34 PM


Re: Consensus
Definist Fallacy
(also known as: persuasive definition fallacy, redefinition)
Description: Defining a term in such a way that makes one’s position much easier to defend.
Logical Form:
A has definition X.
X is harmful to my argument.
Therefore, A has definition Y.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 516 by ringo, posted 02-11-2018 1:34 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 528 of 696 (828175)
02-12-2018 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 527 by Tangle
02-12-2018 4:51 PM


Re: Bridge Analogy Re-examined
Agnosticism is just another phase of the journey.
Theism. Deism. Agnosticism. Atheism. Nihilism
I tend to fluctuate/vacillate between these on a regular basis.
Edited by 1.61803, : a word

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 527 by Tangle, posted 02-12-2018 4:51 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 529 by Tangle, posted 02-12-2018 5:40 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(1)
Message 530 of 696 (828187)
02-13-2018 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 529 by Tangle
02-12-2018 5:40 PM


Re: Bridge Analogy Re-examined
Tangle writes:
if you don't know whether you believe, you don't believe. It's quite simple.
Tangle,
If I do not know that any gods exist I am agnostic.
If I know that no gods exist then I am atheist.
It really is quite simple.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 529 by Tangle, posted 02-12-2018 5:40 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 535 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2018 3:17 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 536 of 696 (828224)
02-14-2018 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 535 by Tangle
02-13-2018 3:17 PM


Re: Bridge Analogy Re-examined
Hi Tangle,
Tangle writes:
No-one knows whether god exists or not.
The word "agnostic" comes from Greek roots meaning "without knowledge."
Tangle writes:
When you don't make the mistake of confusing knowledge and belief, yes it is.
And when you make the mistake of changing the definition of agnostic to suit your argument your are guilty of a fallicous argument called the definist fallacy.
Since the word agnostic means without knowledge and not without belief I will go with what the word means and not what Tangle thinks it means, thank you very much.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 535 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2018 3:17 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 538 by Tangle, posted 02-14-2018 2:44 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 658 of 696 (831168)
04-13-2018 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 653 by ringo
04-11-2018 3:34 PM


Re: Consensus
Ringo writes:
Miracles, by definition, can not be explained. Science does not allow for anything being impossible to explain.
The Scientific method is a tentative self correcting method of explaining nature. Therefore it stands to reason if something is in of itself inexplicable it would be incorporated into the body of science to be further examined.
IF a miracle occurred and was investigated by scientist and found to be inexplicable. Would the scientist then throw away all data pertaining to this event as not worthy of further investigation because it is inexplicable?

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 653 by ringo, posted 04-11-2018 3:34 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 660 by ringo, posted 04-13-2018 12:22 PM 1.61803 has not replied
 Message 661 by NoNukes, posted 04-13-2018 12:44 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
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