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Author Topic:   The "science" of Miracles
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 12 of 696 (823744)
11-16-2017 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by NosyNed
06-28-2004 2:35 AM


How Can A Miracle Be Identified?
NosyNed writes:
My questions are:
What is science then?
How are miracles to be included in this kind of "science"?
How will this be a better way to learn about the natural world?
Also adding jars line of questioning from The Tension Of Faith:
jar writes:
First, how would someone identify some event as a miracle?
Second, why call something a miracle rather than calling it unexplained?
Some interesting responses in this 13 year old EvC Topic.....
The point of investigating something of supposed miraculous or supernatural origin is to arrive at: 1) a scientific explanation, or 2) a faith-based acceptance (if only until a scientific explanation is provided). After all, we're only human.
What do you mean by miracles exactly?. Are you talking about extraordinary intervention by God in our world?. Contradictory to the normal laws of nature?. Being a Christian we must believe in miracles because the Bible tells us they happened. Miracles can happen because God made them happen and God is beyond our 'natural laws', Also there is nothing better than to authenticate your religion by performing miracles.
But when talking about miracles & science we must ask what is science, and what is not science. Philosophers cant agree on what science is, which is strange because they continue to tell us that creation science is not science, and also contradict themselves when saying creation science is not science because it's not testable. They then say the various claims of scientific evidence for creation have been examined & proven false but examined means tested, doesn't it?. So which is it?. Some people say if you believe in miracles you won't be able to do science properly. But many founders of modern science were Christians who believed in miracles.
But what they believed was that the miracles were finished, for example, Gods creation. They believed that God did not intervene with random miracles so that means there natural science could work and the natural world could be investigated. So natural law may be just our own description of how God normally upholds things. This does not necessarily mean miracles cannot happen, ever.(...)Sceptics argue Jesus cannot walk on water for something denser than water would sink to the bottom, but only if something else is not acting on it. So Jesus being God could certainly apply a force that could counteract the gravitational force. So miracles should not be thought of as exceptions to natural law but as additions to them. So Jesus being outside the system can add something to the system. So how can scientist perform science if miracles happen? Well, the answer is simple, We have an orderly God, not a God of confusion. So real science is very much possible while believing in miracles. So to convince a skeptic about miracles being possible there isn't many reasons to give except the Bible which tells us miracles happen and the fact that there's no logical reason to disprove a miracle besides a bias to materialism, and circular reasoning.
So we can see that Gods power and intervention may not be limited to the capacity of man's mind. Miracles are additions to natural law, but in the same place, Christian theology seems to be the one that justifies natural and orderly law in the first place.
Thus the argument resumes 13 years later. Here is another one:
The core of current "creation science", the axioms that God created the world about 6,000 years ago and intervened in various ways since then, is indeed untestable within a scientific paradigm and renders "creation science" unscientific. However, some of the individual claims of "creation scientists", such as "radiometric dating must be false" or "Flood waters could have come from a vapor canopy" can be tested for their conformance with natural laws and consistently fail those tests.
Comments?
Edited by Phat, : spelling and paragraph corrections

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by NosyNed, posted 06-28-2004 2:35 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 14 of 696 (823751)
11-16-2017 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by ringo
11-16-2017 11:06 AM


What Is Gods Science?
I'm still trying to figure out what Gods Science is.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ringo, posted 11-16-2017 11:06 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by ringo, posted 11-16-2017 11:42 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 18 of 696 (823810)
11-17-2017 11:24 AM


Definition Of Terms
So what does google have to say regarding definitions of terms?
Miracle
noun
a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency.
"the miracle of rising from the grave"
synonyms: wonder, marvel, sensation, phenomenon, supernatural phenomenon, mystery
a highly improbable or extraordinary event, development, or accomplishment that brings very welcome consequences.
This is why the idea of evidence conflicts with the very definition of a miracle.
It should also be noted that miracles are always welcome events.
NosyNed writes:
What is science then?
RAZD explained it with the critical thinking chart. There is no science regarding miracles. They are by definition unexplainable and/or unverifiable.
jar writes:
First, how would someone identify some event as a miracle?
I suppose that it would be a welcome surprise unexplainable via scientific rationale.
Second, why call something a miracle rather than calling it unexplained?
Depends on how dramatic it is and how many lives are affected. Back in the day, manna from Heaven was a miracle. These days it likely would be both unexplained and a miracle, if people actually benefitted from eating the stuff.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 11-17-2017 11:57 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 20 by Tangle, posted 11-17-2017 12:34 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 77 of 696 (825511)
12-15-2017 1:04 PM


What IF?
ringo writes:
The important point is that if we know it's impossible, we also know it didn't happen...
You sure seem confident of human infallibility. There are a lot of things we don't know for sure...including what is and is not possible.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by ringo, posted 12-16-2017 10:50 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 126 of 696 (825679)
12-17-2017 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by jar
12-17-2017 9:39 AM


Re: maybe an even bigger issue related to the story of the Exodus.
This whole idea that God was just a plot device in a story is...disturbing.
Do we have evidence that todays God is still just a plot device in our lives?
Cant a guy get to actually believe in a Creator of all seen and unseen Who has time to listen? It seems that if what you suggest is true, there really never has been a God apart from what we create. Which throws religion itself on its head.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by jar, posted 12-17-2017 9:39 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by PaulK, posted 12-17-2017 9:53 AM Phat has replied
 Message 130 by jar, posted 12-17-2017 10:24 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 128 of 696 (825683)
12-17-2017 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by PaulK
12-17-2017 9:53 AM


Re: maybe an even bigger issue related to the story of the Exodus.
Myths and legends featuring Gods aren’t exactly uncommon. Why suppose that the Jew’s ancestors didn’t have them? It shouldn’t be disturbing to conclude that they did.
Because what disturbs me is that in all of these stories there should also be some glimpse into interaction with the God Who is...the One whom actually exists...the One whom believers believe in. jar seems to be saying that in the final analysis, we all make up the God that we want...and that the GOD Who is never makes an actual appearance in our lives.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by PaulK, posted 12-17-2017 9:53 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by PaulK, posted 12-17-2017 10:12 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 145 of 696 (825733)
12-17-2017 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by ringo
12-17-2017 2:08 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
The problem is if we limit reality to things we can explain or describe. Reality may well extend beyond our ability to define.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 2:08 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 2:22 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 149 of 696 (825738)
12-17-2017 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by ringo
12-17-2017 2:22 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Is there any reason to think there is something we can never figure out?
Yes. For one thing, we are limited creatures. There is surely more than one thing that we may never figure out.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 2:22 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by ringo, posted 12-18-2017 11:00 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 153 of 696 (825746)
12-17-2017 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by ringo
12-17-2017 2:36 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
One reason that you never became a believer is that you insist on making GOD a subset of human wisdom and understanding rather than something beyond our understanding. It allows you to maintain an illusion of control over your own fate.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 2:36 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 2:42 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 155 of 696 (825758)
12-17-2017 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by ringo
12-17-2017 2:42 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
How can we understand anything that's beyond our understanding?
We can't. But we can believe. Some are just afraid of the implications. Others trust the presumption.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 2:42 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by ringo, posted 12-18-2017 10:46 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 159 of 696 (825830)
12-18-2017 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by ringo
12-18-2017 10:46 AM


Re: Definition Of Terms
ringo writes:
I WISH the implications were true. Unfortunately, there's no reason to think they are.
There is no reason for you to think that they are, perhaps. You cant define everyone's reason, however.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by ringo, posted 12-18-2017 10:46 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by ringo, posted 12-18-2017 10:52 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 163 of 696 (825835)
12-18-2017 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by ringo
12-18-2017 10:52 AM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Oh ok..

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by ringo, posted 12-18-2017 10:52 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 177 of 696 (825876)
12-18-2017 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Tangle
12-18-2017 3:47 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
we've got detailed and specific evidence of god moving a bridge in a way that defies all our knowledge. It's testable, repeatable and confirmed by many methods. It's as solid as the ToE, more so in fact because it's all happening real time under scientific conditions....
But wait. This example is hypothetical, right? We dont actually yet have any examples with the criteria that you mention...

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Tangle, posted 12-18-2017 3:47 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Tangle, posted 12-18-2017 5:00 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 213 of 696 (825968)
12-20-2017 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Tangle
12-18-2017 5:00 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
OK now I think I see where this is going.
Miracles by definition are hypothetical rather than documented events that are unexplained.
The latter are simply awaiting confirmation.
Some would argue that the stories of miracles already alleged to have occurred are in a similar pile.
But since we have none that are at that level of documentation they remain hypothetical....right?
And of course the Bible folks insist that eyewitness testimony is enough documentation to place their book in the pile awaiting confirmation. You would argue, however, that for all intents and purposes the stories be placed in the mythos pile. Which is also where miracles belong. Strictly speaking.
However...you also argue that IF a miracle actually occurred and was no longer hypothetical, it should properly be distinct from being simply unexplained for now... similar to how the concept of God is viewed.
In other words, you agree that God by definition...should God exist...be supernatural and not merely unknown for the present moment...as a placeholder.
Am I close?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Tangle, posted 12-18-2017 5:00 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Tangle, posted 12-20-2017 12:44 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 214 of 696 (825969)
12-20-2017 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Percy
12-20-2017 8:44 AM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Tangle writes:
I don't see why not, but we have to wait for these things before we can define and describe them. V=IxR wasn't discovered without real evidence.
Percy writes:
Yes! Yes! How can we say what a miracle or the supernatural is without a hint of evidence of their true nature? Right now aren't they just made-up concepts? Certainly, they're very familiar as words, but they're very ill-defined words. Are they really any better defined than a crocoduck?
so jar and ringo argue that miracles by definition are best explained as unknown or unexplainable for now and that no conclusion should ever be made regarding supernatural origin, whereas Tangle is saying that if an event occurred that was unmeasurable by scientific means and could be confirmed it would be properly a miracle. Seems as if jar and ringo have faith in science as the eventual answer where Tangle draws a distinction between what science can and cannot do. (while admitting that it is all hypothetical at this point)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Percy, posted 12-20-2017 8:44 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by jar, posted 12-20-2017 9:38 AM Phat has replied
 Message 229 by Percy, posted 12-20-2017 5:01 PM Phat has not replied

  
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