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Author Topic:   The "science" of Miracles
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(2)
Message 428 of 696 (827783)
02-01-2018 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 427 by Tangle
01-31-2018 5:38 PM


Tangle writes:
Ringo, we all know - including you - that miracles haven't happened. Most of us - including you - 'know' that they never will. As you also know, we're trying to put all that aside and try to imagine what would actually happen if something looking like an actual miracle actually happened.
Yeah, this is how I see it playing out:
*something going against known processes occurs*
1 - Science investigates the phenomenon
2 - Science is unable to explain it within the current framework
3 - Science continues to study and attempt to understand the phenomenon
4 - Science double checks current framework against other parts of reality again - lets say this is all confirmed
5 - Science makes no progress in understanding the phenomenon
6 - Science labels the phenomenon as an "outlier" and does not involve it in the framework that still works for everything else
7 - Science continues to study and attempt to understand the phenomenon and still makes no progress
8 - Some scientists refer to the phenomenon as "a miracle," some scientists refer to the phenomenon as "currently inexplicable"
9 - All scientists (regardless of the terminology they use to refer to the phenomenon) understand that it goes against the current framework, should not exist according to the current framework, does not add any useful knowledge to the current framework, if it was incorporated into the framework (in its unknown and undefined state) it would make other otherwise-useful knowledge defunct and unreliable, all science continues to ignore this phenomenon while continuing to use the current framework for any other investigation.
9 - The media always refers to the phenomenon as "a miracle"
10 - Most scientists don't care if the media or anyone calls the phenomenon a miracle... they simply study things according to #9 and they understand the pragmatisms involved.
11 - Certain scientists don't mind calling the phenomenon a miracle, but when speaking of specifics will always refer to "possibly understanding it at sometime in the future"
12 - Certain scientists will adamantly refuse to call it a miracle and scoff at anyone that does
13 - Science continues to study and attempt to understand the phenomenon regardless of making any progress or not
14 - Rest of science continues to ignore the phenomenon and not incorporate it into the otherwise-understood-current-framework until the phenomenon is understood (and they realize this may be "never")

This message is a reply to:
 Message 427 by Tangle, posted 01-31-2018 5:38 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 429 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2018 10:57 AM Stile has replied
 Message 439 by Percy, posted 02-01-2018 6:34 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 433 of 696 (827795)
02-01-2018 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 429 by Tangle
02-01-2018 10:57 AM


Tangle writes:
or something like thatTM
Yeah, for sure.
It's just what I think/hope would happen.
But what if the 'miracle' was repeated? What if a real faith healer appeared who could, in fact, make limbs grow back on demand, always?
I think it would be treated in generally the same way.
Instead of "the phenomenon" being one healing... "the phenomenon" would be defined as something like "this woman, and her ability to perform such healings."
And then she would be continually studied/ignored by the rest of science accordingly (and as long as she's willing, I suppose... since as a person she would have certain rights).
The line-of-thought can be extended, though.
What if she had children and they could all do it?
What if 10 000 years passes, and other can also do such things, and we end up with most of the world being able to do it?
It would still be unexplainable in the sense that science can't explain (say) where the atoms are coming from... or the energy requirement seems to be either nil or limitless...
Given such a scenario... I would expect Science to create a new ward for studying such things.
It would be acknowledged that they do not necessarily comply with the "rest of the normal-framework"
And as much as there are no limitations to the regrowth of the limb... perhaps there are some limitations... maybe it only works with arms/legs and they can't (say) regrow an elephant's trunk. Or maybe they can regrow one limb, but not an entire lower torso. Or maybe they can regrow mammal tissue but cant do jack for trees. Or maybe they can regrow any living carbon-based tissue, but can't put a metal wire back together if it's cut.
Whatever information can be gained, would be gained.
Whatever information cannot be gained, would continue to be studied in the hopes of one day gaining more. Regardless of any amount of past failure to do so.
...which, really, is the same "science spirit" applied to everything.
And again, some people would use words like "miracle" or "supernatural" or "X-Man" or "witch" or "magic" or maybe multiple terms used by different communities... maybe even a scientific term created to reference such phenomenon.
Some people using "magic-ish" words would even be scientists, I'm sure.
But scientists would always know (on some level) that names of things are of secondary-importance.
Names of things are only for ease-(or-attempt)-of-classification-and-organization.
Primary importance is gaining what information you can, and continuing to record and study the information you don't know how to gain in order to make whatever-progress-you-can.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 429 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2018 10:57 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 434 of 696 (827797)
02-01-2018 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 429 by Tangle
02-01-2018 10:57 AM


And now for the question-of-the-day:
Let's say we have most the world going around re-growing limbs... as I described in my previous post... is it a real "miracle?"
I would say, that if you define miracle to be "going against known standards of science" (or something like that) then, yes, it would be a miracle absolutely. And no scientist would really care. They would continue to study as much as they can, to gain whatever they can, even though they may never get an answer.
If the phenomenon forever remains unknown, it will remain in the "miracle" pile.
If it ever does become known, it will shift over into the "normal-framework-of-science" pile where everything else ends up.
Whether or not individual scientists use the term "miracle," however, would be irrelevant.
They're still going to consider it as "unknown to the current standards of science."
They're still going to study it and try to learn what they can... forever. After all, there would be a Nobel prize and plenty of fame and money given to the one who could figure it out. That carrot would always be there, and scientists would always chase it. To infinity, and beyond!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 429 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2018 10:57 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 435 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2018 1:20 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 436 of 696 (827803)
02-01-2018 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 435 by Tangle
02-01-2018 1:20 PM


Tangle writes:
It wouldn't just be a difficult problem that's currently stumping a few dusty specialists, it would be a global phenomenon that would rock both magisteria.
I agree it would likely be a huge hullaballoo.
On the science side, there would definitely be a very excited team dedicated to trying to figure out whatever they could.
As well, I think most other areas of science would continue on mostly-as-normal... I mean, they would definitely be more open to finding "something" that cannot be explained (as such a thing would now have precedence). But I think for the most part, science would continue (or try to continue?) on much as it does not.
The religious/political/social side of things, though?
A freaking mess.
How many different religions would fight over (kill over?) making sure this "miracle" is seen as confirmation for their select religion?
How many politicians would froth over the idea of saving billions in health care because it's all free an easy now?
How many countries would go to war over attempting to control such a power for, of course, "the good of their people." [/sarcasm]
But, could be wrong about any of that.
Maybe science would fall apart because "well, we can't trust anything we have now!"
(Or maybe funding for it would fall apart under the guise of such a push by the anti-science... causing science to fall apart against-it's-will anyway).
Maybe people would be more "oh? that's nice, wish I could do that..." and then move on with paying their own mortgage and feeding their own kids, much as they always have.
Generally, anyone who thinks some event will have "major implications!! The whole world will change!!!" is usually sorely mistaken.
But not always.
Such is the way of predicting the future... I agree there are many possibilities. Which is more likely? I dunno

This message is a reply to:
 Message 435 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2018 1:20 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 437 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2018 2:31 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 440 of 696 (827827)
02-02-2018 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 437 by Tangle
02-01-2018 2:31 PM


Tangle writes:
I think you underestimate the effect of a real life Jesus doing real miracles in the age of celebrity, TV, Twitter and FaceAche. We'd be lucky if there weren't wars.
Quite possibly, yes.
There are many different possible ways such a thing could unfold.
I think (hope?) you underestimate the ability of normal people to eventually advance the world in good ways.
After all, if it was impossible, then we never would have survived the Dark Ages.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 437 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2018 2:31 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 442 by Tangle, posted 02-02-2018 10:18 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 441 of 696 (827828)
02-02-2018 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 439 by Percy
02-01-2018 6:34 PM


Percy writes:
Wouldn't it be possible that science might make progress understanding the phenomena behind the miracle (I say phenomena on purpose, because of the possibility that more than one phenomenon could be responsible, the way both gravity and aerodynamics are involved in flight)?
Yes, it would definitely be possible for science to make progress.
Science chooses the term "miracle" to describe the phenomena because they're unexplainable according to natural or scientific laws, but then we begin to understand at least a little bit, so is the term "miracle" still appropriate?
If science makes progress to explain parts (or all) of it... then those parts (or all) of it would no longer be considered miracles by any (reasonable) person.
If science never makes progress to explain parts (or all) of it... then those parts (or all) of it could continue to be called a miracle by any (reasonable) person.
Then we get into differentiating between a "miracle" being something-science-cannot-explain-how-it's-going-against-known-standards vs. something-that-is-common-in-the-world.
Which would, at that point, just be a semantics game on how you want to define "miracle."
Is it right not to mention the possibility of a consensus forming around what label to give the phenomena?
I'm sure some sort of scientific terminology would develop.
Perhaps something along similar lines as "Dark Matter/Energy" but with even less information around the idea.
I doubt the scientific terminology would use the word "miracle" or "magic" or anything like that.
I bet, though, that some scientists would use such terms when referring to the phenomenon, and others would not.
Percy writes:
Stile writes:
9 - The media always refers to the phenomenon as "a miracle"
The media can be unpredictable.
Yes, you're right.
"Always" isn't quite the perfect word there. But it got my general idea across.
Percy writes:
Did you really mean to refer to #9? Did you maybe mean #7?
I screwed up my numbers. I put in two 9s. I meant my first #9... the one talking about how I think scientists would study the phenomenon in the situation:
quote:
9 - All scientists (regardless of the terminology they use to refer to the phenomenon) understand that it goes against the current framework, should not exist according to the current framework, does not add any useful knowledge to the current framework, if it was incorporated into the framework (in its unknown and undefined state) it would make other otherwise-useful knowledge defunct and unreliable, all science continues to ignore this phenomenon while continuing to use the current framework for any other investigation.
Edited by Stile, : Changed something-science-cannot-explain to something-science-cannot-explain-how-it's-going-against-known-standards. Because without the last part... it's just something unknown. And things that are 'just unknown' are not called miracles (anymore) by any reasonable person.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by Percy, posted 02-01-2018 6:34 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 576 by Phat, posted 02-27-2018 2:12 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 577 of 696 (828988)
02-28-2018 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 576 by Phat
02-27-2018 2:12 PM


Re: Defining The Issue
Phat writes:
Stile? It seems that you are being asked to weigh in. Is Ringo patently logical or does there need to be a consensus on his part?
Meh.
I've said my part.
The conversation no longer holds my interest. (Can you imagine me wearing a frilly hat and looking down at others while saying this? Because that's what I'm doing)
Same with Faith in her another-attempt-at-defending-the-flood tomfoolery.
She mentioned my earlier attempt to walk her through a discussion showing how something could become a fossil and get buried deep in the ground while a landscape thrived at the surface.
I think my (non-expert) explanation confused her on what I was attempting to explain vs. what she was taking away from it. Or perhaps just the amount of time that's past has clouded her memory of what the exchange was actually about. Or likely a bit of both.
But again:
Meh.
I've said my part.
The conversation no longer holds my interest.
I am a selfish, selfish man on this site. And I like to engage in conversations when I am interested in the subject or want to learn something for me or another selfish-for-me reason.
Right now, nothing is tickling my fancy.
So, I'll remain aloof. Twirling my mustache, becoming more and more crazy as I remain in my solitude, lording over those peasants below.
Ow.
I think my tongue poked a hole in my cheek...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 576 by Phat, posted 02-27-2018 2:12 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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