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Author Topic:   The "science" of Miracles
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 24 of 696 (825337)
12-13-2017 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
12-13-2017 11:12 AM


Re: How can there be such a "science" anyway?
Faith writes:
As has come up on other threads, the ability to study a phenomenon scientifically requires repeatability, and/or evidence that endures after each event.
And as has been pointed out, change must leave evidence and the evidence that would support the miracles found in the Bible stories is totally missing.
The Sun did NOT stop in the sky.
The Conquest of Canaan did not happen.
The Exodus is a folk tale.
Jonah did not live inside a fish.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 12-13-2017 11:12 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Faith, posted 12-13-2017 11:20 AM jar has replied
 Message 78 by kbertsche, posted 12-15-2017 3:14 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 26 of 696 (825340)
12-13-2017 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Faith
12-13-2017 11:20 AM


Re: How can there be such a "science" anyway?
Faith writes:
In the case of phenomena that do not leave evidence and are not replicable you can't just make that fact into evidence against it.
But for all the BIG miracles in the Bible stories there MUST be evidence and for the little miracles where evidence is not possible the reasonable action is to question their actuality.
Simply accepting that they happened and were miracles is silly.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Faith, posted 12-13-2017 11:20 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 37 of 696 (825370)
12-14-2017 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Faith
12-13-2017 4:38 PM


Re: How can there be such a "science" anyway?
Faith writes:
Because of the tons of witness evidence. That's the point. You don't have the scientific kind of evidence you all insist on, but you have lots of witness evidence that you deny out of sheer prejudice.
But every religion and most every claimed miracle has witness evidence. How is Biblical witness evidence, particularly when the witness stories vary and are contradictory, better than the witness evidence from Greek and Roman mythology and Hindu and Buddhist and Taoist and Islamic stories?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 12-13-2017 4:38 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 38 of 696 (825371)
12-14-2017 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
12-13-2017 5:53 PM


Re: How can there be such a "science" anyway?
Faith writes:
Even if hard evidence was left behind, there isn't going to be evidence that it was caused by a miracle is there?
Exactly Faith. That is why it is just silly to claim there is evidence of miracles.
Edited by jar, : fix quotebox

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 12-13-2017 5:53 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 62 of 696 (825420)
12-14-2017 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Faith
12-14-2017 6:45 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Faith writes:
I'm sorry, the entire history of Chrsitianity says you're mistaken because the accounts of miracles in the Bible are understood to be actual events witnessed by many people. Sorry, you can't redefine things to suit yourself.
Reality trumps what people understand or believe.
It is irrelevant how many people understood to be actual events witnessed by many people when the reality is that they are at best hearsay accounts by anonymous authors that often include contradictory stories of the same event.
Reality wins always Faith.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 12-14-2017 6:45 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 65 of 696 (825425)
12-14-2017 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Faith
12-14-2017 7:09 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Faith writes:
The miracles were quite real and Christendom was built on such truths.
Actually Christianity was based on the sword and economic domination; and of course on relics of the saints. Them miracles mean money.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 12-14-2017 7:09 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 70 of 696 (825484)
12-15-2017 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Faith
12-15-2017 10:42 AM


Re: How can there be such a "science" anyway?
Faith writes:
Already said it many times.
No. Just witness evidence.
Yet you have provided no "witness evidence" of any miracles or shown why the miracles you claim happened are different then the miracles you claim are not miracles.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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 Message 69 by Faith, posted 12-15-2017 10:42 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 85 of 696 (825529)
12-15-2017 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by kbertsche
12-15-2017 3:14 PM


Re: How can there be such a "science" anyway?
If there are good scholarly reasons to think either ever happened, you can bring them here. But a link certainly won't do it.
I've read Hoffmeier but never found anything, anything at all beyond speculative vague assertions that quite frankly seem unrelated to either the Exodus or the Conquest of Canaan.
I don't think anyone doubt or disputes that there was cultural exchanges between all of the civilizations of the area but what he asserts seems nothing more than a suggestion of influences throughout the reason, something no one ever disputed.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by kbertsche, posted 12-15-2017 3:14 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by kbertsche, posted 12-17-2017 8:08 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 86 of 696 (825530)
12-15-2017 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Tangle
12-15-2017 4:34 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Tangle writes:
That's fine but to have this discussion at all, you have to allow that miracles are possible and that they defy natural laws.
Not really. All we need to allow is that unexplained things happen that some people label as "a miracle".

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2017 4:34 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2017 4:44 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 89 of 696 (825534)
12-15-2017 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Tangle
12-15-2017 4:44 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
LOL
Too funny.
Tangle writes:
Inferring that people are always mistaken is exactly the same as not allowing miracles as they're defined.
And when someone actually infers that people are always mistaken maybe you should bring that up.
But it has absolutely nothing to do with anything I said.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2017 4:44 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2017 5:04 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 92 of 696 (825537)
12-15-2017 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Tangle
12-15-2017 5:04 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Been over for ages, you simply haven't noticed.
If something happens it is not impossible for it to happen. But you still have not provided, and I cannot imagine that there is, some way to test anything that is not natural.
I happen to believe that there have been miracles but at least do not think there is any evidence or support or reason or logic for that belief.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2017 5:04 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Percy, posted 12-15-2017 5:55 PM jar has not replied
 Message 95 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2017 5:58 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 97 of 696 (825543)
12-15-2017 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Tangle
12-15-2017 5:58 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Tangle writes:
Wine and blood are natural - can be tested. Wine turning into blood is supernatural - can't be tested.
I understand that is your assertion but you have not provided any reason to think wine turning into blood is supernatural IF there was an actual instance of wine turning into blood.
Should there be such and instance it is only evidence that wine did turn into blood and not evidence of the supernatural.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2017 5:58 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Tangle, posted 12-16-2017 3:05 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 98 of 696 (825544)
12-15-2017 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Faith
12-15-2017 6:32 PM


Re: Faith in what?
Faith writes:
Does your God have any grounding in any kind of reality, or even any kind of religion?
There is no evidence of any God having any grounding in any kind of reality.
There is lots of evidence of religions, thousands and thousands and thousands of them; but no evidence of any of them having any grounding in any kind of reality.
Yet billions of people have faith in their religious beliefs. I imagine even you have faith in your religious beliefs.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Faith, posted 12-15-2017 6:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 12-15-2017 7:38 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 100 of 696 (825546)
12-15-2017 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Faith
12-15-2017 7:38 PM


Re: Faith in what?
Faith writes:
My God has plenty of grounding in reality through the Biblical accounts of His acts in history.
abe: I don't know what it could possibly mean to "have faith in one's religious beliefs." My faith is in God, in Christ, not in my beliefs.
And I imagine you even believe that.
However the Biblical accounts are both contradictory and mutually exclusive and have no greater weight as evidence than the accounts of the Buddha or Ganesha EXCEPT in your belief in them.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 12-15-2017 7:38 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Faith, posted 12-15-2017 8:03 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 102 of 696 (825549)
12-15-2017 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Faith
12-15-2017 8:03 PM


Re: Faith in what?
Faith writes:
Do not define my beliefs for me. What I said is the truth.
You said what you believe to be true. There is no more evidence though that it is true than there is for Buddhism or Taoism or Hinduism or Islam or any other religion.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Faith, posted 12-15-2017 8:03 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Faith, posted 12-16-2017 1:04 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
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