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Author | Topic: The "science" of Miracles | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
You can dick around as long as you like with definitions, semantics and avoidance tactics but we both know that to be a miracle supernatual intervention is necessary and that breaks the laws of nature.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
ringo writes: You're the only one in the thread who doesn't seem to understand the definition. Once again, a "miracle" is an extraordinary event that is ATTRIBUTED to supernatural intervention. Somebody THINKS it breaks the laws of nature. For something to be CALLED a "miracle", all that is necessary is ignorance of the cause. You've plucked a definition that includes the word 'attributed' and latched onto it like a dying man. We both know that we're talking about supernatural intervention - if it's not supernatural intervention or you just think it is, it's not what we're discussing. This is what the entire world thinks is a miracle and what I'm talking about.
quote: Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
ringo writes: The word appeared in your definition too. It may be "ascribed" or "deemed" in some definitions but it isn't hard to find. You're still grasping at definitional straws. We all know what a miracle is, it's a supernatural intervention, it breaks natural/scientific laws. Now perhaps you'll deal with flying brigdes and moving mountains.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Percy writes: Tangle accepts the concept (but not the reality) of a true miracle, thinks he knows how to define it ("breaks the laws of nature"), and wants to discuss why miracles aren't real from a scientific perspective, which seems much more appropriate for this thread. Nearly. I'm saying that we know what a miracle is, or would be - equivocation apart - and should one occur in a way we can test to destruction, science would be forced to accept it. I'm trying to get beyond the silly definitional tactics to the scientific one - what kind of evidence would it take for science to throw its hands in the air and say ok, not only is this unexplained but it's also inexplicable? Why would the miraculous be non-susceptible to scientific enquiry? Excuses and semantics don't work, we've got detailed and specific evidence of god moving a bridge in a way that defies all our knowledge. It's testable, repeatable and confirmed by many methods. It's as solid as the ToE, more so in fact because it's all happening real time under scientific conditions.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: But wait. This example is hypothetical, right? We dont actually yet have any examples with the criteria that you mention... Yes Phat, miracles are hypothetical :-)Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Jar writes: I cannot think of any such possible evidence. I've given you access to anything you could unreasonably need. What's you're problem?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Jar writes: I cannot imagine any test that might lead to a conclusion that a miracle happened. Your lack of imagination is not particularly relevant or even needed. I've provided the evidence, why is it inadequate? To me it seems like there's more evidence than for many scientific ideas, it's objective, measureable, repeatable and extensive. You're objection seems to be the conclusion, not the evidence. That's not scoentific.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Percy writes: I think Ringo's point is that there's no way to tell the difference between actions that break the laws of nature versus laws of nature that we don't understand yet. Yes, but we've both given hypothetical examples of things that are not just stuff we don't understand yet because they're at the boundaries of our knowledge - dark energy being an obvious example - but stuff that we have a thorough understanding of; flying bridges, moving mountains and a wine turning into blood. If such things happened routinely our science would stop explaing reality around us. It would be suddenly useless. We are not in the stone age, we now thoroughly understand many parts of our physical world.
Then there's the other argument, that miracles that are amenable to scientific study simply become part of the natural. If the mountain did reposition itself we would have to accept that the supernatural was now part of our natural world. We would know that our world was being influenced by forces beyond the natural. We are no longer ignorant of how things work. Why do we imagine that science is incapable of discriminating between the natural and the supernatural?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
ringo writes: No, we do not know that. Yes we do.
I've already referred you to the miracles in the Bible. Healing the sick does not require breaking any physical laws. Healing the sick requires a miracle if it's done with a shaman's chant and on an amputee. If it's done by a doctor an aspirin and a patient with a head ache it doesn't. Causation not outcome.
And Jesus' face appearing to appear on a taco doesn't require breaking any physical laws. Some things are just dumb.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Percy writes: But you and I have to face it - that's exactly what scientists would do. Even if it's only after the fact, once the George Washington Bridge moves 50 miles up the Hudson, what scientist wouldn't want to study the aftereffects, the margins where the steel and concrete of the bridge were separated from the steel and concrete that remained on the ground, the effects on the alloys and the welds, increases or decreases in heat, changes in the roadway or cars, the experiences of people on the bridge at the time, any photographs or videos that were taken, etc. Imagine having a for-real miracle to study. Any scientist would consider it the opportunity of a lifetime. And I bet most scientists would start with the initial assumption that there is a natural explanation. They sure would, they'd test it to death. But the question no one likes is what happens when it's proven beyond reasonable doubt that the event just wasn't natural? ringo just says it just can't happen. I agree with him, it never has and never will, but then all we've done is say miracles don't and can't exist.
Well, if you're like me, you agree that I've by now crossed over into the absurd. We live in the real world. Things like this are never going to happen, and if they did then they should be considered miracles. Study them if you like, it's at least a starting point, but something more fundamental, more profound, more subtle and momentous at the same time, is going on than just new laws of physics, and that's what really needs to be studied. For thousands of years no physical evidence of miracles, then suddenly physical miracles begin happening. What changed? Yes. And science would be able to conclude that from the evidence.
This is probably where my biggest differences with you lie. I believe anything we can observe, directly (a bridge) or indirectly (dark matter), is natural. I agree that everything that happens in the natural world is natural. Wine is wine and blood is blood. The magic is in the causation.
I can't imagine science being able to discriminate between the natural and the supernatural because in my own mind the supernatural isn't detectable or even existent. I understand and Jar says the same. My answer is also the same, personal credulity is not proof or explanation of anything.
Science would have to provide evidence that the supernatural exists before I would accept it, sort of similar to the way most people have to study the evidence for wave/particle duality or entanglement and things like that before they accept it. Many things in science are established with indirect evidence. The ToE was established that way. The pieces form a picture. In this case it would be the God theory. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Jar writes: Except there is still no evidence of anything that is not natural. Yeh, we've agreed that several times.
While the TOE actually explained a process, method, model, procedure to explain the evidence a God theory explains noting, cannot be used to make predictions, cannot be tested, cannot be verified. You're having a hard time thinking hypothetically. If we had all the evidence I've spoken of in bridge and mountain moving, regrown limbs and wine and blood stuff it would be difficult to arrive at any other conclusion.
Sorry but you still have presented no examples that show a miracle happened. There's no need to apologise, miracles haven't ever happened and they never will. Like I've said many times. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Jar writes: Not true. It might be difficult for YOU to arrive at any other conclusion but I can conclude very easily that the evidence is unexplained. Science would also say that it is unexplained. That's how we know it's miraculous - we're dealing with things within our knowledge, basic, simple things, yet these things are not behaving naturally. We'd say that these events are not only unexplained but are also inexplicable.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Jar writes: You may say they are inexplicable but I would say "They are unexplained and right now inexplicable". I'm saying that science would be forced to say that based on the evidence. Denying evidence is not scientific. You remember the ideal of following the evidence no matter where it leads? A principle much regurgitated here. Well this is the test.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Percy writes: Apologies if I'm mistaken, but I think these are definitions you and I agree with, Yes.
Science is tentative, which I think includes the idea that we can never say that we know all the laws of nature, Yes
and that even the well established ones might have aspects that aren't yet known. Well here's the rub. We say that our theories are tentative but we don't actually mean so much so that they can be totally overturned by some large and obvious effect in our day to day world. We mean in the way that Newton's gravity was improved by Einstein - a marginal effect to our day-to-day lives. When talk of rabbits in the Cambrian we know it will never happen but if it did, it wouldn't be miraculaous, it would be a puzzle. But with your mountain and my bridge, gravity has been defied, not changed. The rest of the world works exactly the way it always has but a new force has been introduced - a very strong and local one. Something off the scale of anything ever seen before. So science would do everything it could to examine this new force, but would find nothing because the cause is super-natural. Something just stepped in and did it. 'An event not explicable by nature or scientific laws'. Causation is everything in a miracle - it's not what happened, it's how it happened. It would be non-scientific not to have a 'goddidit' hypothesis at that point.
But does tentativity also require that we can't know whether miracles are possible? Tentativity says that we it would be bad science to exclude anything, regardless of likelyhood. We proceed on our discovered knowledge which tells us that miracles do not occur, but you can't exclude the black swan entirely. Particularly if a seemingly miraculous event like your mountain actually occurs. I'm interested in my opponents' responses to increasing amounts of evidence. They remain moot on the subject, simply saying that such things are impossible. This is uber-unscientific. A single rabbit in the Cambrian would be a puzzle, but thousands of proven out of place fossils would force a change of mind. Cherubs, interveiews with God, as many fully evidenced moving mountains and flying bridges as are needed are provided, but divine intervention must be ruled out. Why?
Another question is whether it's possible to develop scientific definitions of the supernatural and miracles. Aren't they outside the realm of science, being either fictional or religious? I don't see why not, but we have to wait for these things before we can define and describe them. V=IxR wasn't discovered without real evidence. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Jar writes: But again, so far there has been no evidence that leads to the conclusion of miracle. It must be groundhog day.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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