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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
He said (Mark 1:15), "... believe the gospel" - i.e. what He was saying. He didn't mean you'd see anything "unbelievable".
Jesus said "repent and believe." Obey and see marvelous things unfold before your eyes.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
As usual, it boils down to what you think Jesus said as opposed to what He actually said. Believe whatever nonsense you can dream up and it retro-actively becomes what the Bible "really means".
Ah yes, but while the gospel can be stated in simple terms as the message of salvation by grace through faith in Christ it is usually presented by the theologians I most appreciate as encompassing the entire revelation of the Bible. In fact you can't really understand the simple terms without understanding the larger context.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
You may have borrowed the dream but it's still your dream.
I didn't dream it up, it's the consensus of the theologians I trust. Faith writes:
The difference between you and me being that I quote the Bible to back up what I say.
Your posts on the Bible are usually so outlandishly peculiar to you personally you shouldn't ever talk about others "making things up."
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I live in Saskatchewan so bad weather doesn't scare me. As for the company, I've said before that there are people supposedly in Hell that I would rather spend my time with than a lot of Christians.
IF Hell exists, would you ever want to go there? Phat writes:
It isn't a question of Him "allowing" anything. He's the frickin' landlord.
If the answer is "no" what makes you think that GOD is somehow going to allow you to be tricked and even end up there to begin with?
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's what it all comes down to, isn't it? You couldn't care less about us spending eternity in hell because you can convince yourself that it's our "choice".
I am thankful that we all do have Free Will because some day there will be no excuse that GOD foreordained us to a certain fate.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
No, I'm just taking Phat's theology, and yours, to its logical conclusion. You and Phat believe I'm going to Hell and you're okay with that. I don't believe there is a Hell (at least not beyond the hell on earth that we can create) but if your theology was correct, I'd rather be against your God than for him.
Now you are acting as if you believe YOU have foreknowledge, and know you are going to Hell? Faith writes:
Right back at you: How do you know you won't come to your senses?
How do you even know what YOU will choose or believe next year for that matter? Faith writes:
My understanding of Hell is similar to yours. Remember, I came from where you are. I know the drill. It's just that you put Hell in the same category as France whereas I put it in the same category as Never Never Land.
But I'm also interested in the fact that you don't know how a person deserves Hell.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
I recommend that you try making sense instead.
I often feel like grabbing you or others here by the shirt front and shaking you hoping to get you to accept the gospel. Faith writes:
Same here. I'm still discarding the last vestiges of your so-called "gospel" after being shackled to it for forty years.
I really do know I'm not going to give up on the gospel myself, if only because I came to it so late in life after experiencing over forty years of life without it.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
You pick a funny time to rely on evidence. The problem is that you say so many bizarre things that have nothing to do with the gospel as if they do, so there's really no evidence that you ever really were a believer. And again, the "bizarre" things I say are backed up by scripture. The "orthodox" things that you say are not.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
MrHambre writes:
You're stepping on your own tail there. "We" don't all have the same beliefs, so there is no such thing as "our" beliefs to colour our collective conclusions.
The way we approach information depends on what we already believe.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
MrHambre writes:
That's why decisions on what "is" evidence are made collectively. One of the most common phrases in the English language is, "Did you see that?" We don't trust ourselves to determine unilaterally what is "evident".
Every person individually has beliefs and assumptions through which he or she defines what constitutes "evidence," and what the "evidence" means.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
Because the message is more important than the messenger.
If Jesus was not resurrected then he was not only mistaken about a great deal but was highly delusional. Why would you want to follow a man like that?
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
Only the meaningless part that you have tacked on is meaningless. The message still has meaning.
If Jesus isn't resurrected then the whole Christian faith is meaningless.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
If your grandfather abused you, it would not be reasonable to deny that he ever existed. It WOULD be reasonable to reject him. If I had met a Grandfather who abused me, it would be easier to deny he ever existed. Your analogy is flawed. We all know that our grandfathers existed, whether they were good or bad. We do NOT know whether or not God exists. It is reasonable to deny his existence, given the total lack of evidence that he does exist. Also, given the way he is described by his devotees, it is reasonable to reject him.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
No it isn't. You don't get to change the meaning of words.
In some cases evidence is internal.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Communication requires a sender, a receiver and a channel. The sender and receiver have to use the same meanings of words for communication to occur. If I say, "I ate corn flakes for breakfast," and you interpret that as, "I ate live kittens for breakfast," then we have failed to communicate. Well who gets to define them then? You can NOT use the word "evidence" for any damn thing you please. If it isn't evidence, don't call it evidence. It's that simple. What is it with you believers, anyway? Is your faith so weak that you have to prop it up by pretending you have evidence?
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