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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
We have had the knowledge of good and evil since Adam and Eve. Case closed. ... who are you or I to judge God as being evil...."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
What has that got to do with it? The point is that Adam and Eve did have the knowledge of good and evil and they supposedly passed it down to us - so we are well qualified to judge whether God is good or evil. Who put the tree in the Garden? Who planted it?"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I don't know what any of that has to do with what I said but you're missing the biggest "if" of all - if He even exists. So if the snake were simply a plot device and all evil is within us and God is complete rather than just "good", The only real charge that we have from Him is to choose this day whom we will serve.Right? But again, you're missing the real point: It doesn't matter whether God is good or evil. We can't do anything about that. What matters is the good and/or evil that WE do. Of course, obeying evil commands from God would be evil."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
God Himself said so in Genesis. We have become like Him (Them). We have grown up.
In other words, we no longer even need God since we ourselves know what to do, right? Phat writes:
Like you?
But what of men who call good evil and evil good? Phat writes:
I guess so. They have access to critical thinking just like the rest of us. Whose fault is it if they don't use it? Is it their own fault they got things twisted?"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
What could be more obvious? That's the standard we apply to humans, isn't it? We don't sell toys that are labelled, "May cause serious injury or death." We eliminate the evil threats beforehand. You seem to think that if God were worth His salt, He would have eliminated any evil threats beforehand. Why should God be held to a lower standard?
Phat writes:
That's just a bullshit excuse to blame ourselves for the bad things while giving God the credit for the good things.
This would not allow for free will. Phat writes:
God or no God, we ARE free to do whatever we want and we ARE responsible for the consequences.
You all want to be free to do whatever it is that you want to do. Phat writes:
And they're wrong, as usual. We're under our own law and our own standard.
Apologists would argue that you were thus lawless, not wanting to be under any law or standard. Phat writes:
Who's asking Him to be responsible? By all means, tell Him to stay the Hell away. You may counter by saying that you yourselves make your own standard. In which case God is not responsible if you in fact get yourselves in a jam."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ringo writes:
That has nothing to do with what I said. I was asking why God shouldn't be held to the same standards we hold ourselves to. You unbelievers (or non-believers) still don't get it. Of course humans should use common sense and not be mindless zombies awaiting scriptural confirmation for a given challenge. Stop usung me as a launch pad for your rants and try to reply honestly.
Phat writes:
Sure we do. We watch you doing it every day.
You, however, don't even know how to invent a God. Phat writes:
Yup. We have also concluded that you don't HAVE one, whether you "need" one or not.
You have concluded that you don't need one... Phat writes:
Stop lying. Nobody here has told you that.
... or that science proves there are none. Phat writes:
That question doesn't make any sense. You say that now, but what if you were unable to be able to change your mind? Would you be happy with that?"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I don't see why we shouldn't take credit for the good things we have accomplished.
You would rather blame Him (or Conservative Followers) for the bad things and give you and your fellow humans credit for the good things! Phat writes:
More than that, we will try to prevent them.
In fact, most liberal humanists blame and will blame the followers for the coming bad things which I predict will happen. Phat writes:
Thinking made me a skeptic. He made you a skeptic... And you keep saying "skeptic" as if it was a bad thing. Why do you do that?
Phat writes:
There you go again, mocking what Jesus said.
... so go give away spare change and live your life as best as you can. Phat writes:
That's an odd take on "by their fruits ye shall know them". In your addled mind, are my fruits something to be emulated or something poisonous? I'll try my best to emulate your behavior in that way while being careful not to poison my mind with your conclusions regarding God's existence!"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Then why are you worried about "poisoning your mind" with my conclusions?
Your fruits are fine. Phat writes:
It isn't about enabling. That's just a copout, an excuse to do nothing. I refuse to enable alcoholics and perpetual panhandlers. They're going to be enabled, if not by you then by somebody else. It's about dignity. If somebody asks me for help, who am I to decide whether he really, really, really needs help? I don't buy that 12-step bullshit about how "you can't do it yourself". On the contrary, they HAVE to do it themselves. No matter what help and encouragement they get, they still have to make the final decision themselves. So I give them the dignity of allowing them to make the decision with no interference from me.
Phat writes:
I don't know (or care) about the Federal Reserve but the IRS should definitely know the net worth of every citizen. (I don't know why you say "private" citizen.) How else are they going to know if the citizen is paying his fair share? Your far-right handlers don't want the IRS to prevent them from stealing from YOU, but you keep enabling them.
Are you in favor of the Federal Reserve knowing the net worth of every private citizen? Phat writes:
How so? (I'm going to break my own rule and predict that you won't answer.)
If you say yes, it will confirm your ignorance. Phat writes:
Collecting income tax is not "my method". It's society's method. So go ahead and give sone actual examples of "my methods" and how they do more harm than good. Some of your methods will cause more harm than good. "Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Sure they do. That's how they got Al Capone.
The IRS should not be authoritarians. They already have the information we provide them at our jobs. They have no right to know what I have buried in my backyard! Phat writes:
As I have told you before, if/when the government comes to collect, you WILL pay up. Stop talking like a one of those militia idiots. (Is that a cache of guns in your back yard?)
If Jesus cant make me give it all up, the government sure won't! Phat writes:
You're such a slave to right-wing propaganda. If you're legal, the IRS are on your side, trying to collect from the rich bastards, like Trump, who are NOT legal.
And by the way, I'm fully legal. I just don't like nosy IRS agents.
Phat writes:
In your posts, I always stop reading at "gold". You know nothing about it.
As an example, if someone owns gold.... Phat writes:
Who are YOU decide all by your little self what's fair? It's up to society as a whole.
The liberals are obsessed with this whole "fair share" thing. Who the hell are you to tell me what's fair? Phat writes:
I think you should pay what you're required to pay. Period. When have I ever given you reason to think otherwise?
I'll pay what I'm required to pay and not what *YOU* think I should pay. Period. Phat writes:
I have no idea of Utopia.
Your idea of Utopia... Phat writes:
Just for once, for a change, would you THINK before you blather such nonsense? ... suggests a police state where everyone is forced to distribute their income. First, where have I EVER suggested anything resembling a police state? Second, EVERY nation "forces" its citizens to distribute their income. Ever hear of taxes? Third, YOU are the beneficiary of much of that distribution. Ever go to a public school? Ever drive on a public road? Ever hear of a Fire Department or a Police Department or an Army or a Navy or an Air Force? In your sheer bone-headed, stupidity, do you want to get rid of all of those?
Phat writes:
Well, the Jews had public schules and the Romans had public roads - and Jesus told the people to pay their taxes, so clearly He DID approve. Pull your head out of your ass. Something even Jesus wouldn't approve of."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Why is that even an issue? Yes, the government has every right (and duty) to collect what it needs for libraries, armies and fire departments. The issue is that you think that an elected government has every right to collect what it needs no matter what the amount for the benefit of the meth addict under the bridge as well as the hard-working middle-class guy that appreciates libraries, armies, and fire departments We can't just let the meth addicts burn; the fire might spread next door to the hard-working middle-class guy. We can't just let your buddy Putin invade the country because it will effect the hard-working middle-class guy along with the meth addict. We're all in the same boat.
Phat writes:
I have explained it to you many, many, many times before. The meth dealer shops at your store. The spare change I give circulates. The dollar i give to the meth addict that he gives to his dealer, that he gives to your store is no different from the dollar that YOU spend on too much sugar.
The guy under the bridge trashes public restrooms, has no respect for himself or others, and feeds his addiction from guys like you that give him a few dollars when he looks all forlorn with a sign. Phat writes:
Sure we can. We know that things DO change. My favorite aunt's husband died, leaving her with five small children. She went on welfare for a while and eventually went back to work. The children all grew up to be productive members of society - and so did their children. My point is that you can't simply legislate financial help and expect things to change. How can you even suggest that that legislated financial help didn't change anything?
Phat writes:
But you're not suggesting more. You're suggesting less. You (we) need more than that. Have you ever seen the movie Soylent Green? They use garbage trucks to scoop up "undesirables". Is that the "more" you have in mind?
Phat writes:
What's "authoritarian" about it? I'm just predicting that your bluster won't come to anything. They'll give you the bill and you'll pay. (Unless you hide your money away. But you said you'd never do anything illegal.)
ringo writes:
I like how you sound so authoritarian when it suits you. As I have told you before, if/when the government comes to collect, you WILL pay up. Phat writes:
I don't know what insane corner of your mind that came from. You will find a civil war instead.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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