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Author | Topic: Why Would a Loving God Create Hell? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
As Eddie Izzard said in his routine:
"So my choice is 'or death'?" ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
grace2u responds to Rei:
quote: That doesn't mean it was ordained by god. Time to bring out the Monopoly example again. Monopoly is a game created by humans for humans to play. The rules were created by humans and are administered by humans. They are completely arbitrary and can even change from one household to another. For example, a common variant is that all the money that is collected by Chance and Community Chest cards is placed under Free Parking and whoever lands there gets whatever money is there at the time. You are confusing the concept of "universally accepted" with "cosmically ordained."
quote: Sure there is: Our own experiences, thoughts, desires, and philosophies are the standards. For example, one can easily get the concept of the golden rule from taking a purely selfish view: I wouldn't want this to happen to me, so I shouldn't do it to others and similarly, I'd like other people to treat me that way, so I should do it to others. Just because I am the one that judges the actions and creates the standard doesn't mean those judgements or standards don't exist. The rules of Monopoly are created by humans, but they still exist. And if you break those rules, you're cheating.
quote: The existence of atheists shows this to be wrong. The world is apparently quite sensible without god.
quote: And one of the many illogical ones. Why are you putting your stock in an illegitimate argument? ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
grace2u responds to me:
quote:quote: Why? You keep asserting this, but you provide no evidence for it. If there can be absolutes without god, what is the problem? The rules of Monopoly are absolute. If you break them, you're cheating. And yet, the rules of Monopoly are created not by god but by humans.
quote:quote: But the existence of atheists who have the same morality directly contradicts this. The laws of morality, it seems, can come from somewhere other than god.
quote: But you're being asked to prove that, not assume it. Since atheists come up with moral codes, then it must necessarily be the case that morality does not require god. Since atheists have a sense of right and right, then it must necessarily be the case that right and wrong are not defined solely by god.
quote:quote: Irrelevant. The existence of atheists shows you to be wrong. You can believe that all you want, but atheists have no belief in god and yet still have laws of morality. Therefore, morality is not necessarily god-ordained.
quote: That's an observation, not a belief.
quote: That's because the society accepted it. Morality is a social contract carried by the members of the group who share it.
quote: Precisely. And as long as everybody in the group agrees with that, it is.
quote: Who said it was? Your Christian god seemed to think it was OK and his servant, Abraham, didn't seem to think there was anything wrong with it because, after all, god told him to. He didn't think that god was going to stop him. God said to do it, so he was all set to go through with it. Why is it when your god tells you to kill your first born, it's "right" but when somebody else listens to his god and goes through with it, it's "wrong"?
quote: What does the woman think? You're ignoring the fact that morality is something that is agreed to by all the people involved in the society. I think it's safe to say that the people being raped don't seem to think it's "right."
quote: As the cliche goes, you can't rape the willing.
quote: Indeed. That's because morality deals with not only with personal attitudes towards oneself but also societal attitudes. It requires complicity on all members of the group or it's merely anarchy.
quote: Sure they can. We as a society have decided that it is wrong. What does god have to do with it? Since atheists routinely decide that rape is wrong, their mere existence proves you wrong. Why don't you ask an atheist and see what he has to say about the subject?
quote: So atheists have no morals? So why are there so many atheists who have morals? Their existence proves you wrong.
quote:quote: But the existence of atheists shows this to be wrong. The world is apparently quite logical without god. The fact that "philosophers" assert something doesn't mean they're right. You can shout all you want about how atheism has no way to develop morality, but the simple fact that there are atheists with morality shows that claim to be wrong. You can whine all you want about how there cannot be a mailbox at the corner of Main and Elm, but the fact that we're standing here on that corner looking at the mailbox shows that claim to be wrong.
quote: Then how could the atheists exist? They make sense of the world and do so without god. Therefore, it is possible to make sense of the world without god.
quote: How? Be specific. If you're saying that they are "suppressing the truth" regarding the existence of god, well, they can make the same claim about you. Who are we supposed to believe?
quote:quote: But you're confusing your personal inability to see how there is no god with some universal reality.
quote: But there is no formal proof of god.
quote: Has it not occurred to you that they make the identical argument about you? Who are we supposed to believe?
quote: Indeed. You may be extremely intelligent, but you fail to grasp the more fundamental questions and cannot deal with the realities of the world in which we live. The Monopoly example is one more example of this, in my humble opinion. The existence of atheists proves you wrong.
quote: Indeed. Your "proof" makes little sense on the surface and as you peel away the layers, it is apparent that it is nothing but an argument of "It's true because I say so." How can the world not make sense without god when there are atheists around who do just that? ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
grace2u responds to Chiroptera:
quote: And yet, the existence of rational atheists proves you wrong. You can whine all you want about how there cannot be a mailbox on the corner of Main and Elm, but the mere fact that we are looking at it proves you wrong.
quote: No, you haven't. You have merely asserted them.
quote: You could start by supporting your propositions. For example, how do you establish that something is "absolute"? Even better, you could start by defining your terms. What do you mean by "morality"? Don't worry about the level of math. I am a trained mathematician and will be able to understand most of what you would write.
quote: No, you haven't. You've merely spewed a list of assertions.
quote: The mere existence of atheists is proof. Atheists have morality, some of those tenets of their morality are considered absolute, therefore the atheist universe can account for absolute truths, logic, and morality. The fact that you do not understand how they do this is not sufficient. It merely requires that those traits exist. They do, ergo, the claim is proven.
quote:quote: Incorrect. This claim is an observation. Even on such basic things such as killing, there is no universal standard. Some people claim that it is never, ever OK to kill somebody. Not even in self-defense. Others think that defending your own life is worth taking someone else's. Look at the debate over the death penalty. If there were a universal standard, then we would all be in agreement. Since we're not, then there isn't.
quote: Incorrect. You have it exactly backwards. Denying this claim defies the realities of this world. There is no universal standard of right and wrong.
quote: Incorrect. It is an observation of the most fundamental reality.
quote: Because intuition is the worst standard to judge anything. Intuitively, the sun goes around the earth. Observation is much better. Since observation tells us that there is no universal standard of right and wrong, then intuition is wrong.
quote: Incorrect. In fact, you have it exactly backwards. You are the one twisting the reality of the world to fit into your worldview. You are certain that atheists are...well...insane (or did you mean something else when you said, "they deny simple truths and loose their ability to speak rationaly or to even sustain a rational debate"?) And yet, simple observation shows that they are not. Therefore, the only way to maintain the claim that atheists are insane is to twist reality to suit your worldview. The mere existence of atheists shows you to be wrong.
quote: You just proved my point. Is there a particular reason why you feel the need to call atheists insane?
quote: Incorrect. Atheists have laws of morality. Therefore, your claim is proven incorrect.
quote: You mean observation isn't science? Observation isn't a logical approach? You just said that your standard is intuition. Given how counter-intuitive the universe actually is (the earth goes around the sun, velocity is relative instead of linear, most everything is quantized rather than analog), what on earth makes you think that following your intuition is sufficient evidence for anything?
quote:quote: Well, I am a mathematician, grace2u (whether or not I am an atheist being immaterial). I, too, would fail you. You have not proven your claim. You haven't even defined your terms. All you have done is spew a list of assertions.
quote: No, you're just insulting. Or is there some other way to take being called a lunatic?
quote: But the fact that they exist and are intelligible proves you wrong.
quote: Prove it.
quote: Yes. You are. ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
WILLOWTREE responds to me:
quote: BZZZZT! Pascal's Wager. I'm so sorry, WILLOWTREE. Johnny, tell him what parting gifts he has! Well, Bob, WILLOWTREE has won himself a lifetime of anguish in someone else's hell! Yes, that's right. After spending all of his life fighting against Satan and worshipping the Christian god, WILLOWTREE gets a reward of going straight to Hades for his hubris. He'll be sentenced to solve a series of puzzles for which the instructions can be read in many ways. Every attempt to glean more information will be met with "Since it would just be a waste of my time to tell you, I won't." Of course, every proposed solution will conflict with something in the contradictory instructions. This being for his continued insistence that those around him are unworthy of explanations. But, he won't get hungry because he'll have an afterlife-time supply of Rice-a-Roni, the San Francisco Treat. You didn't really think that the god that truly exists is the Christian one, did you? ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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