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Author | Topic: Omniscience, Omnipotence, the Fall & Logical Contradictions. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So if you give a baby a bottle of poison, whatever happens is a result of his choices.... Sounds like you're scrambling to absolve your god of any kind of responsibility. Omnipotent but irresponsible doesn't sound like a good combination to me.
If your robot has the power of choice programmed into it and it directly makes that choice, you are only responsible for creating choice...not actual evil. Phat writes:
How is accepting responsibility for you own actions not "higher" morally than not accepting responsibility?
And even if you could be accused of such, your accusers have no power or ability to judge you since they all are of no higher moral character.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Bill Cosby used to say to his kids on TV, "I brought you into this world and I can take you out." As long as the Creator/Father has that attitude, we're all his babies.
Who is "the baby"? We are all adults here. Phat writes:
Anything that has consequences. Why should God get the credit for giving us opportunites and then take no responsibility for the consequences?
What is "the poison"?
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
When you create choices, you are at least partially responsible for the consequences of those choices, no matter who else makes the actual choice. If you give a baby a bottle of poison, he may choose to drink it or he may choose to give it to his friend or he may choose to play with the blocks instead. But a responsible person wouldn't give him that choice. By giving him that "free will", you automatically become responsible.
Choice has consequences. Is freedom of choice "poison"?
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
If God was omniscient, He should have known that without being told.
Should Lucifer have told God that regardless of what he (Lucifer) chose to do or become, God was responsible for creating him and giving him free choice to question authority? Phat writes:
If he was omnipotent, why not? Why is evil "necessary"?
Should God have not allowed evil to exist?
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
If there is absolute truth, how can there be free will? A choice between TRUE and FALSE is not a real choice. Free will requires a choice like, If I do this, then that happens OR if I do something else, then something different happens. That's relative truth.
I believe that evil is simple disobedience of truth.... If God was an absolute, however, Lucifer was arguing against that absolute. He was essentially arguing that truth is relative.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
There's a big difference between accepting the principles taught by somebody and acknowledging that somebody as "Lord".
This is why I believe that even though you are not religious and even say that you lean towards agnosticism/atheism, you have the Spirit within you. most all of your answers to many religious arguments and discussions show that you have accepted Jesus, or at least that were you to meet Him you would acknowledge Him as Lord. Phat writes:
I think it's pretty clear that the "choice" to be altruistic is biological nad social, not religious. Almost every religion advocates the same altruism.
You may argue, just for arguments sake, that God foreknew all of this and in that respect you never had a choice not to believe. (or act.) what say ye?
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Because Jesus Himself said that calling Him "Lord" doesn't cut it.
Likely the first being in the universe to refuse to call Jesus Lord was satan. Why follow that model?quote:
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Our debate is about empty beliefs versus actions. I believe in actions as strongly as you believe in some guy rising from the dead. The difference is that your belief has no meaning.
OK, getting back to one of our side debates about beliefs versus actions.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You're not going back far enough: Is a car necessary at all? What does "necessary" mean?
Thus my question. Is Red Necessary? Is Green Necessary? Is White Necessary?
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
God invented alcohol. What necessity was its mother? Do we usually curse the one who invented alcohol, for example? Evil "must have been" a necessary invention because you need it to make your theology work.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
What does the homeless guy care about your motivation? His life or death don't depend on your motivation. If feeding him is not "enough", what is?
If I simply give spare change to the creative homeless guy spinning his sign on the corner, and if i am doing it to alleviate my conscience, perhaps I am not doing enough.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Jesus said you should sell what you have and give to the poor. He didn't say you should go into debt trying to feed all of them. He didn't say you should neglect your own children to feed the poor. It's your decision how much you do to help the poor. The only option that isn't on the table is zero.
I can't feed all of them. Phat writes:
Forget God. Just do what the bumper sticker says, "Do unto others as you would expect THEM to do unto you."
Perhaps if I did unto others the way that I EXPECT God to DO unto ME, I would find the answer.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
What do you think the Golden Rule means?
But I never would expect handouts from any strangers.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
What do you need to "trust" when you're helping the poor? You're not getting anything (material) in return so you can't be ripped off. What's it to you what their motives are?
How can I trust handing money out to people whom I never know their motives, intentions, or character?
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
yeah but im losing money.quote: quote: quote:I could go on and on. Why do you insist on ignoring the message?
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