Summations Only

Hello Buz. Let's take this one step at a time bearing in mind the the thread title: "Which More 3LoT Compatible, Cavediver's Temp.Non-ID Or Buzsaw's Infinite ID Universe" Buz do you understand and accept that for an eternal universe to not be in a state of maximum entropy this supernatural entity you are citing as the "manager" of energy must be acting to decrease the overall entropy of the universe?Do you accept or dispute this?

Does the total amount of energy in the universe increase, decrease or remain constant?Does your supernatural manager of energy act to reverse the total entropy in your eternal universe or does entropy always increase in your eternal universe model?

OK. So your model is a closed thermodynamic system. The total amount of energy remains constant. Your model also stipulates that this closed system has existed for eternity.After an eternity of ever increasing entropy any such system would necessarily be in state of maximum entropy. Do you agree? Your perpetual motion machine can only be maintained by this supernatural manager of energy you have conjured up continually reversing entropy in a manner that is entirely at odds with the second law of thermodynamics.Have we ever observed any incidence of entropy reversing in the way your model demands must occur? It should be obvious to even you that your model is not compatible with the laws of thermodynamics.

LinkCase closed.

If the entropy of the entire universe only ever increases but never deceases then a universe which has existed for eternity would, necessarily, be in a state of maximum entropy.How could it possibly be otherwise?

You haven't said that. But the second law of thermodynamics does say that. That is the problem with your model. It contradicts the second law of thermodynamics. LinkYour model demands decreases in entropy of the universe. Thus your model violates the second law of thermodynamics.Case closed. Again.

Buz - Do you think that the universe as observed is in a state of thermodynamic equilibrium? In other words no useful work can be done. In other words a state of maximum entropy. If the universe is not expanding and has existed for eternity it would indeed be in a state of thermodynamic equilibrium. It would be. But it isn’t. So you are demonstrably wrong. The entire point of the second law of thermodynamics is that an overall increase in entropy is exactly that — Inevitable. No. Open systems within the Universe (e.g. the Earth) only ever result in an increase of the total entropy of the universe as a whole. That is the entire point of the second law of thermodynamics. You can (for example) decrease the entropy in a room by switching on the air conditioning. But using that air conditioner will necessarily result in an overall increase in the entropy within the universe as a whole. But the universe isn’t in a state of thermodynamic equilibrium. If it were it would be in state of Heat Death. If your manager is thermodynamically a perpetual motion machine of some sort then your model is blatantly not compatible with the laws of thermodynamics. LinkThe case remains closed. You just haven't realised it. And probably never will.

Exactly. Which means that your non-expanding universe cannot have existed for eternity because the second law of dynamics tells us that such a universe would inevitably be in a state of thermodynamic equilibrium if it had.After an eternity of increasing entropy a state of equilibrium would inevitably have been reached. That is what the 2nd law of thermodynamics tells us. You are basing your entire argument on the the Merriam Webster Dictionary definition of "tendency"? You haven't said that. But the second law of thermodynamics does say that. That is the problem with your model. It contradicts the second law of thermodynamics.Case closed. Still.

The effect you are talking about is only relevant to microscopic fluctuations. Even BUz isn't going to claim that the universe is a microscopic system.

Buz can you explain how there is no net increase in entropy within the universe when absolutely everything going on around you is resulting in an increase in the total entropy?I've just picked up a cup. The total entropy within the universe has increased as a result.How are you getting round this rather inconvenient fact?

I've just rubbed my hand across the desk and there most definitely was friction and an increase in the entropy of the universe as a result.So how is the net entropy within the universe not increasing Buz?

So do you agree that the total entropy is increasing?

What does that even mean?Buz given that every event ever observed results in an increase in the total entropy within the universe how on Earth can your eternal universe not be in a state of equilibrium (i.e. maximum entropy)?Are you suggesting that this designer of yours is secretly offsetting the observed increases in entropy by reducing the entropy of the universe in some unseen way? Yes you have already stated that the total energy in your model remains constant. But your model still obviously defies the second law of thermodynamics.

Every event ever observed results in an increase, never a decrease, in entropy. Every single time you do anything (lift a cup, type on your computer, walk down the road etc.) entropy increases. Never decreases. As the Sun and all of the other stars blaze away total entropy increases. Never decreases.Do you understand this? Do you dispute this?Every event ever observed results in an increase, never a decrease, in total entropy. That is what we observe. And that is what the second law of thermodynamics tells us will always be the case.So given that every event within the universe results in an increase in entropy how on Earth can your eternal universe not be in a state of equilibrium (i.e. maximum entropy)?Are you suggesting that this designer of yours is secretly offsetting ALL of the observed increases in entropy by reducing the entropy of the universe in some unseen and unobservable way?

The construction of said cup will result in an increase in total entropy. That is what the second law tells us. That is what we observe. Do you understand this? Do you dispute this?Look around you Buz. Every event you can see is resulting in an increase in entropy. Your computer. Your light bulb. The Sun. You extracting energy from the food you ate for breakfast. So how on Earth can your eternal universe not be in a state of equilibrium (i.e. maximum entropy)?Are you suggesting that this designer of yours is secretly offsetting ALL of the observed increases in entropy by reducing the entropy of the universe in some unseen and unobservable way?