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Author | Topic: Which More 3LoT Compatible, Cavediver's Temp.Non-ID Or Buzsaw's Infinite ID Universe | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Straggler writes: buz writes: Where did I say the entropy of the entire universe only ever increases? You haven't said that. But the second law of thermodynamics does say that. Your link, relative to the 2nd law begins thus:
quote: Notice that the tendency of entropy is to increase until equilibrium is reached. That is the tendency. Tendency does not require inevitability necessarily. That tendency can be reversed via open systems within the Universe, thus prolonging the state of equilibrium. The Buzsaw Biblical Universe model has the source of the energy of the system being the managing entity, i.e. Jehovah, capable, within the system to apply work so as to eternally prolong a state of equilibrium. There is ample corroborative observable evidence supportive to the hypothesis that this entity exists, thus, the EvC evolution vs creation debate as to which is more thermodynamically compatible, the BB evolution model or the Buzsaw Biblical model. Both models have unknowns. Neither has absolute proof. Nobody has observed the genesis of the Universe or of life. We have vastly more observable physical evidence of claims in the Biblical record than we do of the BB and biogenesis of life.
quote: The above is just one example of disputes about entropy, etc.
Straggler writes: Your model demands decreases in entropy of the universe. Thus your model violates the second law of thermodynamics. No it doesn't. It calls for decreases within the system capable of management via work, compatible with the 2nd law and observable evidence within the system. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future. Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Straggler writes: Buz writes: Notice that the tendency of entropy is to increase until equilibrium is reached. Buz - Do you think that the universe as observed is in a state of thermodynamic equilibrium? No. Why? Because, as observed, the state of equilibrium has not been reached. I have no quarrels with your Wiki quote which attests to that.
wiki on thermodynamic equilibrium writes: In a state of thermodynamic equilibrium, there are no net flows of matter or of energy, no phase changes, and no unbalanced potentials (or driving forces), within the system. Straggler writes: In other words no useful work can be done. In other words a state of maximum entropy. If the universe is not expanding and has existed for eternity it would indeed be in a state of thermodynamic equilibrium. It would be. But it isn’t. So you are demonstrably wrong. You're spinning what the 2nd law says, as per the Wiki quote. Since the Universe is not in a state of equilibrium, driving forces within the system are operative. Straggler writes: Buz writes: That is the tendency. Tendency does not require inevitability necessarily. The entire point of the second law of thermodynamics is that an overall increase in entropy is exactly that — Inevitable. That's not what it says. The definition of tendency, as per the the Merriam Webster Dictionary:
quote: Straggler writes: Buz writes: That tendency can be reversed via open systems within the Universe, thus prolonging the state of equilibrium. No. Open systems within the Universe (e.g. the Earth) only ever result in an increase of the total entropy of the universe as a whole. That is the entire point of the second law of thermodynamics. You can (for example) decrease the entropy in a room by switching on the air conditioning. But using that air conditioner will necessarily result in an overall increase in the entropy within the universe as a whole. You're leading us into circles here, Straggler, repeating what I've already refuted.
According to your former link the tendency of the entire system is for entropy to increase, so long as it is not in a state of equilibrium. Buz writes: The Buzsaw Biblical Universe model has the source of the energy of the system being the managing entity, i.e. Jehovah, capable, within the system to apply work so as to eternally prolong a state of equilibrium. But the universe isn’t in a state of thermodynamic equilibrium. If it were it would be in state of Heat Death. To clarify what I meant to say is that reaching a state of entropy would be eternally prolonged. In other words, the eternal ID managing entity, capable of managing the energy of the system, as per the Biblical record, would not allow a state of equilibrium to be reached.
Straggler writes: Buz writes: To answer both questions, the total (I say total) amount remains constant, the managing source of energy existing within Universe; the Universe itself being the only existing perpetual machine, i.e. eternal, if you will. If your manager is thermodynamically a perpetual motion machine of some sort then your model is blatantly not compatible with the laws of thermodynamics. So far, you have failed to falsify it as per my messages. Of course, Hawking's opinion does not factor in all of the above. As he states, it would be difficult, which does not imply inevitability.
Straggler writes: The case remains closed. You just haven't realised it. And probably never will. I won't, so long as you keep on keeping on touting your falsified position, ever so anxious to close the case. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future. Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Rrhain writes: Your insistence that somehow the entropy of the universe decreases is a direct violation of the second law. Rrhain, have you been reading? Read, carefully and thoughtfully, my responses to Straggler relative to the above.
Rrhain writes: First, the universe isn't open. That's the entire point. Rrhain, this is just one example of why, often, my time is wasted responding to you. You're just repeating what has been addressed. I've never alleged that the Universe is an open system. You should know that by now, if you've been paying attention. All systems within the Universe are open. That's my position.
Rrhain writes: Second, open systems within the universe are irrelevant. You've chosen to ignored their relevancy to this debate.
Rrhain writes: And then there's that "prolong the state of equilibrium" nonsense. Again; never has been my position.
Rrhain writes: We can't read your mind. I'm not asking you to. All I'm asking is for you to read, more carefully what I say before responding. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future. Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Straggler writes: Buz writes:Since the Universe is not in a state of equilibrium, driving forces within the system are operative. Exactly. Which means that your non-expanding universe cannot have existed for eternity because the second law of dynamics tells us that such a universe would inevitably be in a state of thermodynamic equilibrium if it had. I've been doing some reading up on Wiki's Second Law Of Thermodynamics relative to the application of useful work, as follows:
quote: (Color mine for emphasis) The above entropy scenario is descriptive of the working eternal engineer/entity within the Universe capable of effecting the conservation of energy within the Universe system. There is a zero net change in the total entropy of the closed system (Universe), thus satisfying compatibility to the 1st Law Of Thermodynamics. I've emphasized the term, classical thermodynamics so as to make a point that the application of the 2nd law as you state it in your response above depicts the common application of the law, assuming no intelligent designing(ID) manager/engineer eternally at work. This eternal application of work would prevent the Universe from reaching a state of equilibrium, as per Buzsaw's Infinite ID Universe. Edited by Buzsaw, : Phrase changeBUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future. Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
PaulK writes: Of course, because your system - unlike those described in the article - is infinitely old - you require a genuinely infinite energy source in the "surroundings". So you've gone back to insisting on an infinite energy source again (i.e. a perpetual motion machine). The difference in my system and a perpetual motion machine would be that in any machine there is friction. In my reading I noticed that this friction would be the difference , in some cases, between the possibility of a perpetual motion machine and no possibility, relative to the work factor of the 2nd law stated in the Wiki link. ABE: In my perpetual engineered work system, there would be no friction in that it is not a perpetual machine, perse. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Edited by Buzsaw, : Add statementBUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future. Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Dr Adequate writes: Your system includes the universe. There is friction in the universe. But in my system there is no friction effected between the transfer of energy from the sub-system, i.e. engineer/working ID entity to the sub-system's surroundings. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future. Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Straggler writes: Buz can you explain how there is no net increase in entropy within the universe when absolutely everything going on around you is resulting in an increase in the total entropy? My bad. I posted this without thinking that it is only the total energy of the system does not change.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Straggler writes: So how is the net entropy within the universe not increasing Buz? The ID entity, engineering (compatible to the 2nd Law) system) effects a fluctuation of the -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Edited by Buzsaw, : strike out "net"BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future. Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Straggler writes: Buz given that every event ever observed results in an increase in the total entropy within the universe Oh. So you've observed entropy increasing uniformity for the 1st 13 1/2 BYA? What did the Universe look like 4 1/2 BYA? How about 5 BYA? You've observed all that exists, beyond the range of our telescopes, etc? You've observed chaos and disorder advancing all of the way up to the order and complexity that we have, including the primordial stuff forming into orderly stars, planets, etc,? You've observed primordial soup coming to life all the way to now? You've observed what set off a submicroscopic hot chaotic speck suddenly appearing to expand into all of the order and wonderment observed? You're an amazing person to observe all of that magic, Straggler. Was that in your other life? If ever increasing entropy can do all of that naturally, who should want an engineered decrease in entropy? Edited by Buzsaw, : Change punctuation and eliminate wordBUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future. Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Dr Adequate writes:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But the fact that we never see a magical decrease in net entropy surely is significant, just as the fact that we've never seen a winged pig is relevant to the question of whether there are pigs with wings.The fact is that nobody has seen a net increase in entropy since the alleged singularity. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future. Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Malcolm, I said this in response to Dr. Adequate's statement:
quote: Malcolm, I ask you the same question. Have you seen a net increase in entropy since the alleged singularity? BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future. Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
hooah writes: Have you seen a rain drop form? Have you seen a magic sky wizard design a universe? Yes. Thanks for asking. The process is wonderful. One of my sons has cameras and techy which shows them forming in slow motion. There are physical observable magnifying techy which blows up the image to any desirable extent. Likely, if you recall, you've seen them also. We can watch it happen regularly. we have absolute proof of the before, present and after of the rain drop. On the other hand, you, Cavediver, none of us human-kind have ever seen anything having no evidence of a before, outside of, timeless, space-less, etc. event such as the magical myth of the alleged singularity and BB which has been indoctrinated into the impressionable minds of the sheeple science students of our educational institutions. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future. Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Straggler writes: Every event ever observed results in an increase, never a decrease, in entropy. Every single time you do anything (lift a cup, type on your computer, walk down the road etc.) entropy increases. Never decreases. As the Sun and all of the other stars blaze away total entropy increases. Never decreases. Do you understand this? Do you dispute this? First let me ask you this, Straggler. Would the engineering work processes (relative to 2LoT) of creating the cup all the way from natural material to the intelligent designing and creation of the cup which you lifted be more indicative of an increase or decrease of entropy? BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future. Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
hooah writes: On the other hand, you, ICANT, none of us human-kind have ever seen anything having no evidence of a before, outside of, timeless, space-less, etc. event such as the magical myth of the alleged IDer or sky wizard which has been indoctrinated into the impressionable minds of the sheeple church going children of our societies, even attempting to shoehorn this wizardry into the schools. Which is more physically observable, Hooah? The alleged space-less, timeless, singularity having no outside of or area in which to expand, etc. or the return of Jews and re-instated nation of Israel after 1900 plus years of global dispersion as per the Biblical prophecies? BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future. Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
jar writes: First, the singularity is not an object Mmm, Thanks, Jar. I'll add that to my list of impossibilities relative to the alleged singularity.
If you or other like-minded sheeple, can think of other impossibilities or un-observables which could be added to my list, I'd like to be apprised of them also, so as to expand the list of expansion impossibilities.
jar writes: but the Big Bang is observable. Mmm, given the singularity was all of the above, including no object from which anything could emerge, you sheeple really do believe in magic, don't you? jar writes: There is no evidence though of the return of Jews and re-instated nation of Israel after 1900 plus years of global dispersion as per the Biblical prophecies. What's you problem with it: not magical enough for you to buy into? BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future. Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."
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