Born Again

Learn to read and stop taking quotes out of context. You will never learn as long as you do that.There is NOTHING in the section you quoted that in any way conflicts with anything I have said.If you actually learn to read you will find that is true, but first YOU need to learn how to read.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

I ASKED you a question. Essentially "Do you Agree with this or not?"If nothing in the section contradicts what you've said then all you need to do is say YES.So "YES" then ? Jesus was the Ruler of the Universe ? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Again, learn to read.In case you forgot, here is the section you quoted:

quote:

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1: What do Christians Believe?

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There are two important parts to Christian belief. Firstly, Christians believe in a God who is an all-powerful intelligent being, existing independently of the physical Universe, and responsible for its creation. We also believe that God cares deeply about the Universe and all of its inhabitants.

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This belief is common to many major religions. Jews, Muslims and Christians all worship the same God, in different ways.

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Secondly, Christians believe that Jesus of Nazareth (c. 6 BC to AD 27) was a manifestation of God on Earth as a human, and that His teaching as recorded in the Bible is therefore a direct insight into God's wishes for humanity.

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Lots of people have claimed to be gods. Why do Christians believe Jesus really was?
There are several good reasons. Firstly, He taught a path of self-denial and caring for others, and followed these teachings Himself, and as a result He was executed by the Romans. This is hardly the behaviour you'd expect from a person claiming to be the Ruler of the Universe — unless He was telling the truth.

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[A Beginner's Guide to the Anglican Church]

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Page not found - St John's Roslyn Anglican Church Dunedin

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Learn to read all of it and not just one pieces part. Belief doesn't fit on a bumper sticker and "Yes" or "No" is seldom the real answer.The sentence you seem to be harping on is "This is hardly the behaviour you'd expect from a person claiming to be the Ruler of the Universe — unless He was telling the truth." however that is but one part of the whole quotation.Note that in the preceding sections they mention that Jesus is a "manifestation of God on Earth as a human.A manifestation of God.As a human. Not god/human, not chimera, but simply human.A human cannot be the Ruler of the Universe and so while alive among us, NO, Jesus was not the Ruler of the Universe.However, after his ascension it is a different story.But wait, there is more.It also says that it is the teachings that are important.The proper question you should have asked would be "Do you believe that Jesus is the Ruler of the universe?"The answer then would be:

quote:

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I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

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And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

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Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

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And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

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And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

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BUT...none of this has anything to do with the topic of "Born Again".

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Are you truly resorting to that?

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

There is nothing in your response which effects the validity of the QUESTION that I asked of you. This has become your weak mantra defense - a condescending remark as if I missed something in my reading. I didn't forget what is in that paragraphs there. And I have every right to ask you about ONE particular embedded remark in the section.There is nothing illegitimate about me focusing on a particular portion and asking if you concur with that portion. I do not HAVE to ask you about every sentence in the writing.You have every right to qualify your answer with other statements made in the same discussion. I read enough to know that a basic question about Jesus - Ruler of the Universe could be asked fairly of you. I did not ask you to fit all your beliefs on a bumper sticker. I did not assume all you needed to define your belief was this ONE issue. YOU assumed that I was doing that.I noticed well that you said you believed in the resurrection of Christ. I noticed other things you wrote.My particular question was about Jesus as Ruler of the Universe, as stated by the Anglican website as a belief Christians hold, in thier view. I don't have to ask you about every sentence in that article. And YOU ASSUME that I did not NOTICE that.
I DID notice that the first time.It does not effect my asking you the perfectly legitimate and fair question about you belief in Jesus being Ruler of the Universe. And YOU ASSUME that the very FIRST time I read that I noticed that it said, "A [not the] .... but A manifestation of God"YOU ASSUME that I missed that detail. I did not. And it has no bearing on me asking you about Jesus as Ruler of the Universe. That is a distinct question about a particular matter. Okay. Now we have a caveat that we can address! Fine!Jesus WAS a man when He rose from the dead and said this: "And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and disciple all nations ..." (Matthew 2718,19a) 1.) We can say here that Jesus teaches Himself as Ruler of the Universe2.) Jesus is still a MAN at this time and among the disciples.So I question how biblical is your assertion that while as a man among us Jesus could not be Ruler of the universe.I have the right to question that as I line up your belief with what the Bible said.Furthermore, BEFORE His death and resurrection, Jesus certainly demonstrated in many instances His authority over the forces of nature - healing, knowing on occasion in an omniscient way. I said "on occasion".He demonstrated His authority over weather, atoms and molecules which make up food, power over disease and even death. He forgave sins which His opposers recognized as only the attribute of God Almighty had: "Who can forgive sins but God?"So as a man, a typical man, who thirsted, hungered, marveled, wept, grew tired, on occasion He manifested His rulership over the universe. You are rather sparse here. Maybe you do not want to say too much for some reason.But BEFORE His ascension, as I indicated, Jesus said that ALL authority in heaven and earth had been committed into His hands (Matt. 28:18) May I suggest that you also pay close attention to your reading of the New Testament ?You see, I believe that Jesus was the mingling of God and man. And this mingling of God and man started at His birth and continued through His life on earth.So He was God-man for 33.5 years also before His ascension. So He was like us typical human beings but was also God Himself.And the disciples recognized the divine in Him before His ascension: "And the men marveled, saying, What kind of man is this that even the winds and the sea obey Him." (Matt. 8:27) The demons recognized Him as divine before His ascension: "What have we to do with You, Jesus Nazarene? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are - the Holy One of God. And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Be quiet and come out of him!" (Mark 1:24,25) And the human disciples recognized His divinity believing He was the Holy One of God before His ascension: "And we have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God." (John 6:69) Before His ascension both Nathaniel and Peter confessed that He was the Son of God. And it is evident that this confession was that He was more than just a holy prophet.On the mount of transfiguration Jesus temporarily allowed the spendour of His divinity to shine through the concealing shell of His humanity (Matt.17:1-8) I did not miss that sentence any more then I missed that it said He was "a manifestation of God".My question was about Him being Ruler of the Universe. If I wanted to ask about something else I would have. Maybe, I was going ON to ask about something ELSE also written in the discussion after I got clear on where you stood on the issue of Ruler of the Universe. I don't really need you to tell me what the proper question to ask was.The "proper question" may not be the one you WANT to answer. So if you believe that the Holy Ghost (ie. Holy Spirit) is the Giver of Life then why do you have a problem with "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6) in speaking of the Holy Spirit being the agent with which a man is born again ?And why would you not understand that when Jesus told the disciples after His resurrection - "Receive the Holy Spirit" that most likely they were born again at that time ?And if that is the case why is being regenerated through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead so without meaning to you ? That is a good confession.But I don't understand why you wrote that the resurrection is not too important, but rather the ascension is.They are both very important. And quite in context the Apostle Paul tells us that Christ died for our justification: " ... Him who has raised raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, Who has been delivered up for our offenses and was raised for our justication." (Rom. 4:24b,25) His resurrection is the seal that the Father accepted His vicarious death on the cross for the sins of mankind.Both the resurrection and the ascension are important. And Paul labors in First Corinthians 15 to show that if Christ did not rise from the dead, the Christian faith is totally futile and believers are of all men to be pitied.The first gospel messages of Peter emphasized Christ's resurrection. So Christ's resurrection is crucial to the foundation of the Christian church.And resurrection is mentioned as part of the foundation of the Christian teaching: [qs]"Therefore leaving the word of the beginningof Christ, let us be brought on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith in God, of the teaching of baptisms and of the laying on of hands, OF THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD and of eternal judgment." (Heb. 6:1,2 my emphasis)The resurrection of Christ is therefore foundational to the Christian faith.As the Christian is to stand by faith on the fact that he has been raised together with Christ (Col. 3:1; Eph. 2:6) Christ's resurrection is vital to the Christian's experience. " .. as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we might walk in newness of life." (Rom. 6:4b) "Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him." (Rom. 6:8) But I think you made a good confession in concuring with the Nicene Creed.Are you going to lose some skeptical buddies around this Forum ? Does jar today hold that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Ruler of the universe ? Let's go back to the passage which you say has no meaning - "Christians" are regenerated unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.1.) We could not be regenerated unless we were justified by His redemption.2.) Christ's resurrection is a seal that God has accepted His death for the sinners as a mean of thier forgiveness.3.) It was after His resurrection that He breathed into the disciples telling them to Receive the Holy Spirit in John 20. They could be "born of the Spirit" because now they could receive the Spirit.4.) The hope is discribed as "a living hope" because it is actually a living Person who enters into the believers.5.) Jesus said "Because I live you shall also live". He could not mean we physically live because He lives. Because if He did not rise from the dead the disciples certainly would have gone on living naturally regardless.The living here must be the living according to the divine life which is something NEW that will be added to them because Jesus lives in resurrection.Since it is a new life to be lived a BIRTH, a SECOND BIRTH is an appropriate description of this truth.That is enough for this post. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

To paraphrase the woman in "Irving, the Unemployed Horse", 'Just as I suspected, quote mines, nothing but quote mines. In fact, you have so many quote mines you cannot keep them all in the refrigerator!'

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

I will continue to quote when and where ever I want to do so.I will quote the New Testament and the Old Testament.I just may do more of it. It seems it must be effective. Your seeking a truce on quotations seems to be a begging me to stop putting up quotes that you really CANNOT deal with.But for what it is worth. Maybe I understand a little more about your backround.Get use to quotations from the Bible. No apologies. You're in for more of them.

And if you cannot point out WHY the quotes are supposedly out of context, I have no intention of stopping just on your say so with great aplume.You gave ZERO examples when asked to demonstrate out of context quotes. Not ONE example did you give.

I seek no truce, whatever that means.Please, go ahead and present your best support of YOUR position.I will simply continue pointing out that what you are doing is simply quote mining and so irrelevant and valueless.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

But you have NOT pointed that out. When asked for only TWO examples, you couldn't give them.

Did I say that ALL of your quotes are taken out of context?Is that more or less than two?Any time you pull a single verse or as you often do, only part of a verse it is quote mining, taking things out of context.Unless you include all of the surrounding material, it is quote mining.It really is that simple and the big reason that what is called "Bible Study" in so many of the Chapters of Club Christian is just silly and a way to avoid learning.When Christians pull John 3:16 out it is an example of quote mining.When you post ""And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and disciple all nations ..." (Matthew 2718,19a) " it is an egregious example of quote mining. Notice the ellipsis.There are two specific examples.If you like I will list every quote that you have presented, but I think that is overkill and excessive.The audience can read what YOU post and what I post and make up their own minds.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

How someone uses John 3:16 is a case by case situation. It depends on what theological point they are trying to make.Making a general statement that the quoting of John 3:16 is in and of itself bad quote mining is ridiculous.Besides, I asked for two examples from what I wrote in these posts. Your first example is too general. Other then that you don't like Christians to quote John 3:16 I don't know what you're trying to prove. I will take this as your sole example in this discussion so far, of my alledged "out of context quote mining".If I recall, the issue was whether Jesus was Ruler of the Universe or not according to what Christians believe. You said you believed He is Ruler of the Universe and made a slight reference to His ascension.The effect it had to me was to assume that you are saying that after His ascension, He is Ruler of the Universe. (I don't know how you think about before His incarnation)But with this backround, I quoted to you Matthew 28:18 which shows Jesus Christ proclaiming that all authority in heaven and earth has been given to Him. This is BEFORE His ascension. And this establishes the point that He could certainly be thought of as Ruler of the uiverse with universal authority, in this pre-ascension passage.The immediate context is, on what basis should the disciples go into all the world and preach the Gospel of Christ ? They should because Christ before His ascension has all authority given into His hands. And this is before He ascended for He is speaking from the surface of the earth in Matthew 28. He speaks from a mountain in Galilee (v.16).Your sole example of my alledged non-contextural quote mining is a failure. And the audience can decide for themselves, as you suggested. One example of my writing which fails badly.
The other is a general and vague complaint against anyone quoting John 3:16. The problem here is not overkill but underkill.Take your single example of my quotation of Matthew 28:18 and prove how I yanked it out of context. ANYONE who thinks I quoted Matthew 28:18 "out of context" please confirm it and show me how. If all I hear is crickets chirping into the wee hours of the morning, I will assume the audience does not support your charge of my alledged "out of context quote mining" of Matthew 28:16 .In the mean time, I did ask for your TWO strongest examples. So far there is one extremly weak example. Let me guess. Your other example is just devastating ?What's your other strong example ?I thought you would try my quotating of Hosea 11:4. That's the one I was bracing for.See? here I am even giving you a hand. I'm reasonable. But you're not doing too well in establishing your criticism of out of context quote mining. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Elaborate what you mean please.

Sorry, but it seems that you do not even know what quote mining is.When ever you pull a single verse out or even worse, part of a verse out, it is taking things out of context.It really is that simple.Quoting John 3:16 is taking that verse out of context.AbE: look up ellipsis.Edited by jar, : add suggestion to look up ellipsis.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

The phrase "quote mining" is not a no-no to me.I am afraid that in the weakness of your case you have fallen back on a vague complaint that ANY supporting passages I use in this discussion on being born anew, is out of context quote mining.Journals and publications of all types QUOTE portions of others' writings. I do not have to quote an entire chapter to highlight the relevant portion that I want you to focus on.Case in point - Matthew 28:18 shows Jesus teaching that ALL AUTHORITY has been given into His hands. Based upon that one passage we certainly have ground to view Him as a universal ruler.I do not need to quote the entire Gospel of Matthew to make this point. I do not need to quote the entire 28th chapter of Matthew to make this point.If you think I err here, Explain Why. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.