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Author Topic:   Born Again
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 316 of 388 (615433)
05-12-2011 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by jar
05-12-2011 7:23 PM


John was not a revisionist. Rather he was an old disciple seeking to bring the Christian brothers back to the beginning. And that is the indwelling Christ as their life.
The first things they learned is the beginning that John always seeks to bring his readers back to. His ministry is a ministry of recovery.
As one who is born again I certainly do expect to have to given an account of my Christian life and service before the judgment seat of Christ.
And the way I am preparing for that is to realize daily that apart from abiding in Him I can do nothing:
"Abide in Me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing." (John 15:4,5)
John recovers the vital truth that Christ is the Source. And the believers must be "grafted" into Him to draw the divine life from being attached to Him.
Apart from abiding in Him we may do a lot. But it will all account for nothing if Christ's indwelling life and nature is not the source.
Self righteous humanitarian striving may build up the world system. It may even build up a denomination. It will not build up the kingdom of God. Apart from abiding in Him and He abiding in the Christian, we can do nothing for His will.
Some time ago you wrote:
Can't speak for Ringo but I try to be born again every minute of every day in every year, with particular emphasis on the act of being born again during the first ten days of Tishri.
Are you more interested in Episcopalianism or in practicing Judiasm ?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by jar, posted 05-12-2011 7:23 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by jar, posted 05-13-2011 10:37 AM jaywill has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 317 of 388 (615453)
05-13-2011 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by jar
05-12-2011 12:35 PM


Re: Original Sin In OT
The proper question you should have asked would be "Do you believe that Jesus is the Ruler of the universe?"
The answer then would be:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.
And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Or what is the name of this Creedal Statement ?
How did the the writers of this creedal statement arrive at these concise summaries ?
For example, how did they arrive at these beliefs:
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made
1.) One God ? Is that in the Bible ?
2.) One Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten ? How did they arrive at that understanding ?
Do you know what furnishes the ground for these two creedal beliefs ?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by jar, posted 05-12-2011 12:35 PM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 318 of 388 (615464)
05-13-2011 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 316 by jaywill
05-12-2011 11:33 PM


Is practicing Christianity and Judaism mutually exclusive?
You do understand that Jesus was a Jew?
You do understand that most of the Christian Feast Days and Holy Days are simply co-opted Judaic Feast days?
And of course the author of John was writing as a revisionist. That is why it is considered as not one of the synoptic gospels. You even admit that when you posted "John recovers the vital truth that Christ is the Source." The author of John was trying to present a different view, a revised view; a revisionist.
The whole emphasis, structure and preplanned format in John is different than in any of the other Gospels.
There really isn't something I know of that I'd call Episcopalianism, beyond a few very general basics.
The rest of your post comes across as just word salad and
quote:
Self righteous humanitarian striving may build up the world system. It may even build up a denomination. It will not build up the kingdom of God. Apart from abiding in Him and He abiding in the Christian, we can do nothing for His will.
seems to me to be exactly the error that Jesus followers are making and that gets them sent off as Goats in the Sheep and Goats parable.
jay writes:
Or what is the name of this Creedal Statement ?
How did the the writers of this creedal statement arrive at these concise summaries ?
Seriously?
That is the Nicene Creed.
It was developed as so many creeds, to be a consensus statement that could be accepted by a group but still exclude certain factions for political and theological reasons.
Remember, when this was written there was no Bible at all; there was not yet any Christian Canons.
jay writes:
1.) One God ? Is that in the Bible ?
2.) One Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten ? How did they arrive at that understanding ?
Do you know what furnishes the ground for these two creedal beliefs ?
The idea that there is but one God can be seen evolving slowly throughout the Bible. In most of the Bible there are many Gods.
The second issue is what is generally called an identity statement, and was meant to differentiate Christianity from Judaism.
They arrived at the statements through argument, discourse, discord, and compromise. The goal was to get a statement that people could say, "It's not what I want but I can live with that."

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by jaywill, posted 05-12-2011 11:33 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by jaywill, posted 05-14-2011 3:39 AM jar has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 319 of 388 (615535)
05-14-2011 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 318 by jar
05-13-2011 10:37 AM


Is practicing Christianity and Judaism mutually exclusive?
You do understand that Jesus was a Jew?
This may be difficult for some to understand, but I do not regard God as an "ism" or a religion, but a living Person.
For purposes of this discussion, I would only say that regardless of what religion one wants to practice, he must be born again in order to see the kingdom of God (John 3:3)
Regeneration is not a matter of practicing a religion, even a Christian religion. And it is not something anyone can decide to do for himself on his own.
We can only receive Christ the Person. We can believe into a position in which we are acceptable to allow God to do in us what we CANNOT do. And that is to cause us to be born anew in our innermost being.
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name,
Who were begotten not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12,13)
Only God can cause the new birth. The new birth will happen because of the faithful promise of God. As many as received Jesus Christ, to them will be granted authority to be born children of God.
Such a birth is not of passed on through the religion practiced by your parents. Such a birth is not of blood. Such a birth is not of the choosing of the fallen nature of Adam - the flesh. Nor is such a birth even the choosing of the will of man. It is of God the begetting Father.
One practicing Judiasm may be born again if he receives Christ the Son of God. One practicing Episcapalianianism may also be born again if he receives Christ the Son of God.
You do understand that most of the Christian Feast Days and Holy Days are simply co-opted Judaic Feast days?
I only know of the Lord's Table or the Lord's Supper as the only ordained New Testament meal.
But I am going focus here on being born anew. I confess that I have been wandering from that topic. Hopefully, no more from my side.
And of course the author of John was writing as a revisionist.
John was more of a net mender. He was called by Christ while repairing fish nets. Peter was called while casting nets for fishing. John was called while repairing nets.
I believe this backround was sovereign of God. The Gospel net had been damaged by the time John wrote his writings. His burden from the Holy Spirit was to bring the disciples back to the beginning.
Christ is profound and needs to be explained by more than one writer. Matthew has his part. And John has his part. And important to John's portion is that we see we must receive the living Jesus Christ as a new life imparted into us - a birth from above. That is a birth deep within, as you alluded. But the source is God.
That is why it is considered as not one of the synoptic gospels. You even admit that when you posted "John recovers the vital truth that Christ is the Source." The author of John was trying to present a different view, a revised view; a revisionist.
John's ministry is a ministry of recovery. The previous Gospel writers did not become apostate.
"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the Word of life ..."(1 John 1:1)
"Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you but an old commandment, which you have had from the beginning, the old commandment is the word which you heard. (2:7)
"I write to you, fathers, because you know Him who is from the beginning." (v.13a)
"I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who is from the beginning." (v.14)
"They went out from us, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but [they went out] that they might be manifested that they all are not of us." (v.19)
"As for you, that which you heard from the beginning, let it abide in you. If that which you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (v.24)
The is the aged apostle John excercising his gift and burden of ministry, to recover the disciples reminding them of what they received from the beginning of the Christian church.
In the nine or so cases which John presents in the Gospel of John, of Jesus interacting with people, he tells of the new birth.
" Do not marvel that I said to you, "You must be born anew."
John is bringing the readers back to the essential beginnings of the Gospel in the way of recovery - to emphasize foundational matters of life in Jesus Christ. You cannot enter into the kingdom of God unless you are born of water and of the Spirit. You must be born into this kingdom of God by divine life, by the Divine Spirit.
The whole emphasis, structure and preplanned format in John is different than in any of the other Gospels.
We all know it is different. And unbelievers and skeptics of various kinds have tried to exploit this difference for years. People will always try to chase the Apostle John's writings out of the four Gospels.
But this "four legged stool" of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John is soveriegn of God. The perculiar design of the four Gospels, I firmly believe, is God's design.
This would be an interesting discussion. I am trying to stay close to the matter of born anew - born again in the New Testament as the OP inquired.
There really isn't something I know of that I'd call Episcopalianism, beyond a few very general basics.
I let that go for now. But I notice they are very opened about who can have communion in an Episcapalian church , more so then most denominations.
The rest of your post comes across as just word salad and
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Self righteous humanitarian striving may build up the world system. It may even build up a denomination. It will not build up the kingdom of God. Apart from abiding in Him and He abiding in the Christian, we can do nothing for His will.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
seems to me to be exactly the error that Jesus followers are making and that gets them sent off as Goats in the Sheep and Goats parable.
I would only say here that I do not believe that the Sheep in the parable of Matthew 25:31-46 are born again. And they do "go away into eternal life".
This is not that eternal life enters into them. But they go away into an everlasting human life like Adam was before he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I have been persuaded that these sheep are not sons of God and are not born again.
The Lord said that the sons of God would reign forever and ever. Who are they going to reign for and over ? It is not logical that they reign over themselves. So there must be some nations left for the millennium reign and for the reign of God's sons in eternity. These are the sheep over whom they will reign forever and who are healed to be recovered to the state of Adam before his fall - a state of innocence.
But that prophetic passage has a certain eschatological significance. These sheep and goats are Gentile nations who pass through the great tribulation. And their judgment is not based upon the Gospel preached in the church age. But their judgment is based on how they treated a third group, which is neither sheep or goats. That that third group is "these, the least of My brothers" .
This requires another discussion thread, IMO. But these sheep and goats are judged in relation to their treatment of Jews and Christians during the time of the great tribulation.
Some people love this section of the New Testament as strong support for a Social Gospel of humanitarian works. I do not think it is wrong to apply Christ's words there to encourage liberality and charity, mercy and aid to the sick, the imprisoned, the destitute and poverty stricken.
It is not wrong, IMO, to apply that parable in such a way. But that is not an interpretation of the eschatological significance of it.
jay writes:
Or what is the name of this Creedal Statement ?
How did the the writers of this creedal statement arrive at these concise summaries ?
Seriously?
That is the Nicene Creed.
My point was that the summaries were arrived at from rigorous exploration of the Scripture canon at that time. In other words, what you would object to as "quote mining".
If I recall properly, only some New Testament books were not yet added to the canon at the time of the council of Nicea. I think Revelation and Hebrews may not have been included by then.
I think you're wrong to generalize that there was no Bible. And like it or not, they did considerable "quote mining" to arrive at that Creed.
I stopped lifting creeds too highly many years ago. What I mean is that I regard no historic creed from any council higher than the Scriptures. Historic creeds have their place. It is an important place but not more important than the Scripture itself.
It was developed as so many creeds, to be a consensus statement that could be accepted by a group but still exclude certain factions for political and theological reasons.
Remember, when this was written there was no Bible at all; there was not yet any Christian Canons.
I think that only some books were not yet included in the NT canon. I think saying there was not Bible is an overstatement.
However, in this post, the main thing I want people to see is that being born again is not a matter of practicing a religion.
God alone can cause the believer to be born anew. We can only receive Christ, be justified by that faith by Christ so that we are in the proper position to be regenerated by His life.
He is eager and willing to receive us. And I have seen people born anew in all kinds of situations. God seems willing to cause a believer to be regenerated at any time He wants.
Your statements below this point I have not included. My point was made that theologians, both Jewish and Christian, have done what you charge as "quote mining" for centries to clarify, discover, and hold certain truths which they sought to verify from Scripture.
I am not effected by the pejorative suggestion that "quote mining" is essentially taking verses out of context.
I am willing to examine anyone's complaint that I took a certain verse out of context. But I expect reasonable evidence of that. The vague charge that "Well, you didn't quote the whole chapter" doesn't work that way with me.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by jar, posted 05-13-2011 10:37 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by jar, posted 05-14-2011 11:15 AM jaywill has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 320 of 388 (615564)
05-14-2011 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 319 by jaywill
05-14-2011 3:39 AM


Summing it up.
It's fine if you hold those beliefs.
I personally find them weak, pitiful and valueless, but if they do for you then fine.
You seem to think that being born again is some one time event caused by some outside magical force.
I believe that being born again is a minute by minute, day by day, year by year task that each of us must do and that it is only our behavior that can show that effort.
In the end, I doubt what anyone believes about God or Jesus will really have much if any value.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by jaywill, posted 05-14-2011 3:39 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by jaywill, posted 05-14-2011 11:50 AM jar has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 321 of 388 (615569)
05-14-2011 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 320 by jar
05-14-2011 11:15 AM


Re: Summing it up.
It's fine if you hold those beliefs.
I personally find them weak, pitiful and valueless, but if they do for you then fine.
What have you pointed to which is superior to receiving the life of God to be a child of God and to grow into a son of God ?
I have never seen anything presented by you which is more valuable then the New Testament salvation and service in Christ.
You seem to think that being born again is some one time event caused by some outside magical force.
"Magical force" is your word of contempt. I do not contemptuously dismiss the Eternal Father who begets children as a "outside magical force".
There is high regard for the Father throughout the whole Bible.
And your caricature of "outside" seems rather strange to me. The New Testament discribes this begetting Father as not only over all (as outside) but upon the new birth is also "in all"
" ... One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all" (Eph. 4:6)
So the eternal Father is not just outside to the Christian. He is over all and in all the members of the Body of Christ.
Here again, the Father is very subjective and in the regenerated believer:
"And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." (Rom. 8:11)
So you see, the NT teaches that this Spirit of the One [the Father] Who raised Christ Jesus from the dead is subjectively indwelling the disciples and giving them divine life.
And this agrees with Christ, in resurrection, becoming a life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45)
"Outside magical force" is your own ignorant caricature and superfiscial misunderstanding of God's economy. Jesus taught that it was the indwelling Spirit of His Father which would provide the disciples what to answer under persecution:
" ... for it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; For you are not the ones speaking, but the Spirit of your Father is the One speaking in you." (Matt. 10:20)
The Spirit of the Father is an indwelling Person giving life and supplying words to speak from within under persecution. So whence your misconception of a purely "outside magical force" ?
And again Jesus said He and the Father would come INTO the lover of Jesus to subjectively make an abode within them:
"Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We [Son and Father] will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
If you learned none of this down at the Episcapal Church USA then perhaps you should pray and seek more genuine fellowship.
I believe that being born again is a minute by minute, day by day, year by year task that each of us must do and that it is only our behavior that can show that effort.
No real harm in that, if you are not subtly using that as an excuse to dismiss God's imparting of His life to man as "outside magical force".
But I think you are confusing spiritual growth with initial spiritual birth. I have written that before in this discussion.
In the end, I doubt what anyone believes about God or Jesus will really have much if any value.
Except that if you do not receive the Lord Jesus as your Savior you will perish forever. So you should re-consider what is written in John 3:
"He who believes into the Son has eternal life; but he who disobeys the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him." (John 3:36)
Why would you want to abide under the wrath of God ? That is to perish. They didn't teach you in the Episcapal Church that you need a Redeemer and a Savior in Jesus Christ?
They taught you that it doesn't matter how you think about Jesus ? Did they tell you that such verses as showing reason to be justified in Christ's salvation, were just "out of context quote mining?"
If so you were deceived by these "teachers". Don't blame me. These words of urgency come out of the mouth of Jesus. I did not make them up:
" He who believes into Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed into the name of the Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil." (John 3:18,19)
Don't blame me for quote mining. Rather take these words of Jesus to God in prayer concerning your own eternal destiny.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by jar, posted 05-14-2011 11:15 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by jar, posted 05-14-2011 12:02 PM jaywill has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 322 of 388 (615573)
05-14-2011 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 321 by jaywill
05-14-2011 11:50 AM


Re: Summing it up.
jay writes:
Don't blame me for quote mining. Rather take these words of Jesus to God in prayer concerning your own eternal destiny.
Yawn.
Sorry Charlie but no thanks.
Belief is not something of value unless it is expressed through behavior.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by jaywill, posted 05-14-2011 11:50 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by jaywill, posted 05-14-2011 12:15 PM jar has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 323 of 388 (615577)
05-14-2011 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by jar
05-14-2011 12:02 PM


Re: Summing it up.
Belief is not something of value unless it is expressed through behavior.
But behavior is never a good excuse to reject Christ. That is self righteousness.
However, once being regenerated, I totally agree, that is not an end in itself. And that I also learned right out of the same Bible.
The only thing deader than faith without works is works used to replace the need for faith. That is really dead.
Now if we are finished "summing up" I will look for some other posts by others to which I might respond.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by jar, posted 05-14-2011 12:02 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by jar, posted 05-14-2011 12:34 PM jaywill has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 324 of 388 (615581)
05-14-2011 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Jon
02-18-2011 7:03 PM


Re: Origins of an Idea
Okay. Can you explain how that supports the notion of 'born again'? A bare quotation doesn't help me too much.
Thanks,
Jon
Without quotation let me explain. The nature of God after the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus, is that He is RECEIVABLE. He is ENTERABLE. He can come into our being. He can indwell our being.
God, from the resurrection of Jesus, can come and make an abode with us. That is to compound His life with our life. That is to mingle His life with our life.
That is to cause man to begin, and this is a profound but true concept, to LIVE GOD.
Now I didn't say just live FOR God. I said LIVE GOD. God becomes a sphere and a realm of life in which man may live out the God who indwells him.
From our standpoint, to be born again is like coming into an intimate friendship with an unusual invisible Person. Being regenerated and born again, from the human standpoint, is like suddenly being aware of Someone living within your life.
This is unique. There is no sense in denying it. This is a very unique experience.
The beginning of this relationship is discribed in the New Testament as a second birth. It is the beginning of your new life. Before you lived apart from God. Whether you consider yourself good or bad, it doesn't matter. You were apart from and alienated from the life of God (Eph. 4:18)
The termination of the alienation is not cheap. It cost God a tremendous price. We can be born again only because Christ has paid a tremendous price on His cross to redeem us out from under the righteous penalty of the law of God for our sins.
Because we can be justified in Christ's redemptive death we can be enlivened by His resurrection. We receive Christ who is receivable, and we, being justified from sins, can be reborn in the very kernel of our spiritual being.
The nucleus of man, the innermost part of man's spiritual being become united with God through Christ, and in the power of the Holy Spirit.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Jon, posted 02-18-2011 7:03 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by Jon, posted 05-14-2011 1:34 PM jaywill has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 325 of 388 (615582)
05-14-2011 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by jaywill
05-14-2011 12:15 PM


Re: Summing it up.
More utter nonsense.
jay writes:
But behavior is never a good excuse to reject Christ.
Sorry but that is both irrelevant and silly.
No one mentioned rejecting Christ, I just don't see where it is necessary to accept Christ in the first place. I imagine that there will be far more Atheists, Agnostics, Jews. Muslims, Buddhists, Satanist, Animists, Wiccans, Hindus and Taoists in heaven than Christians.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by jaywill, posted 05-14-2011 12:15 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by jaywill, posted 05-14-2011 12:37 PM jar has seen this message but not replied
 Message 328 by jaywill, posted 05-14-2011 1:05 PM jar has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 326 of 388 (615583)
05-14-2011 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by jar
05-14-2011 12:34 PM


Re: Summing it up.
I thought you were off having a good yawn.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by jar, posted 05-14-2011 12:34 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 327 of 388 (615585)
05-14-2011 12:45 PM


Some people think that we need to be born again because we are sinful. Actually, even if we were not sinful, we would still need to receive the divine life of God in order to fulfill His eternal purpose.
Adam was placed before "the tree of life". Adam was not created sinful. He was very good. He was innocent, at least for a season.
This good man was placed before the tree of life. This means that even a good creation should receive the divine life of God for God's purpose. And that purpose is to unite with man and be mingled with man.
Again, we need regeneration because God's eternal plan to live in man requires us to receive Him into our being as life.
As it stands, when Adam sinned, the way to the tree of life was cut off to him. And it is not opened again until the redemptive death of Jesus. Then the divine life of God can be received.
At the fall of Adam, the way to the life of God was protected by the angel with the flaming sword. Officially, that was the beginning of mankind being "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18)
Christ, in His redemptive death and resurrection, opened again the way for man to receive the Divine Life in addition to his created human life.
I am a little reluctant to say that if Adam had taken of the tree of life he would have been born again. But perhaps it is not wrong to say that. He had a very good life, before he sinned. And this very good man needed to receive in addition to his natural life, the divine and uncreated life of God embodied in the tree of life.
Today, this tree of life, is Jesus Christ - virtually. Jesus is the tree of life today. And His death on Calvary has re-opened the previously excluded way to receive God into us as eternal life.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 328 of 388 (615589)
05-14-2011 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by jar
05-14-2011 12:34 PM


Re: Summing it up.
No one mentioned rejecting Christ, I just don't see where it is necessary to accept Christ in the first place. I imagine that there will be far more Atheists, Agnostics, Jews. Muslims, Buddhists, Satanist, Animists, Wiccans, Hindus and Taoists in heaven than Christians.
You may think that you are the only one who has ever seen hypocrisy among those professing to be Christians.
Now I have found that people easily think they are the ONLY ones who noticed "hypocrits in the church".
You can spend only so much time licking your wounds and convincing yourself "At least I am not THAT bad as those guys."
It's fun for a while to consider that, at least, you're are better than this or that fundy who may have hurt your feelings or stole your bike or openly behaved badly giving the Christian faith a bad name.
After a while, you should come to the realization that just because you can point out the hypocrisy of others doesn't mean that you are better.
This attitude is what I call "the knowledge of good and evil". That is something we are very proud of.
If the moment has not come in your life when you notice no one else but YOU and JESUS with a circle around you, you have not come into much divine life flowing through you.
there will be far more Atheists, Agnostics, Jews. Muslims, Buddhists, Satanist, Animists, Wiccans, Hindus and Taoists in heaven than Christians.
I didn't once mention "going to heaven". Read your Bible more carefully rather than just pick up traditional cliches.
As for people who receive eternal life? I fully expect to be surprised. There is no need to warn me of ironic surprise. From reading the New Testament I learned that I should expect to be surprised.
I am most surprised that I have been blessed to be saved. It is this astounding sense of undeserved blessing which is the fuel of the evangelists.
Others, Lord Jesus, simply MUST receive what I have so undeservedly received. This is the fire of the Gospel preacher.
Why me Lord ??? Others simply HAVE to meet Jesus too. At least they must be given their chance to hear about Jesus.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by jar, posted 05-14-2011 12:34 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by jar, posted 05-14-2011 1:12 PM jaywill has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 329 of 388 (615590)
05-14-2011 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by jaywill
05-14-2011 1:05 PM


Re: Summing it up.
Good thing I never claimed to be better than anyone then isn't it.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by jaywill, posted 05-14-2011 1:05 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by jaywill, posted 05-14-2011 1:18 PM jar has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 330 of 388 (615591)
05-14-2011 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 329 by jar
05-14-2011 1:12 PM


Re: Summing it up.
jar writes:
Good thing I never claimed to be better than anyone then isn't it.
It is implicit in this kind of attitude:
I just don't see where it is necessary to accept Christ in the first place. I imagine that there will be far more Atheists, Agnostics, Jews. Muslims, Buddhists, Satanist, Animists, Wiccans, Hindus and Taoists in heaven than Christians.
You're passing judgment on those who have put their faith in Christ.
It is a mock. And it is another way of saying you'd sooner keep company with better people like these.
Vintage self righteousness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by jar, posted 05-14-2011 1:12 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by jar, posted 05-14-2011 1:21 PM jaywill has not replied

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