Born Again

Exactly. Anytime that you take a single verse as a quote it is nothing but quote mining.It really is that simple.

---

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

It depends on what point the quoter is trying to MAKE.How in the world can you make a generalization that quoting a particular passage is doing so out of context ?Quoting "To be or not to be" - is quoting Hamlet out of context.That depends on how the quoter is using the quotation and what he is trying to establish by reference to it.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

That is a ridiculous blanket statement and bad generalization.So you want a RULE here that no single passages can be quoted ? What do you suppose that is going to do for you ? Do you think that will give your views more traction ?

Sorry but yes, that is quote mining.It is unlikely you will ever present any quote from the Bible (including several other Canons than the Western Protestant Canon) that I have not read in context.The issue is that you have a point to make instead of looking at what the Bible actually says.

---

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Too funny.My views will be supported or fall based on the reasoning, without resorting to quote mining.I let the readers decide.You are free to quote mine all you want. I do not want to prohibit you from posting most anything.

---

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Jar, wants his opinions not to be examined in the light of the Scriptures.Comparing some of his ideas to what is written concerning the subject matter is "quote mining" and is out of context and in and of itself improper.This amounts to "Don't examine my thoughts about the Bible's teaching in light of what is written in the Bible." THOU SHALT NOT QUOTE MINE.An unbroken stream of opinions from jar is of course OK. But we can't compare his thoughts to what is written in the Bible in a fair and contextural way.

You're too good to me jar. Thanks for the permission.By the way, WHY did you quote the Nicene Creed if quote mining is taboo ?

Too funny indeed.One generalization about how he doesn't like people to refer to John 3:16. And one terribly failed example which he cannot demonstrate is out of context quoting.

That has an impressive sound to it.While you're at it would you please show me why my reference to Matthew 28:18 as I used it was taking it out of context?Here's your chance. I asked for TWO strong examples of my out of context quote mining.You gave ONE specific to me, which you CANNOT back up as an improper reference to a passage in an out of context manner.You can't do it. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Ah, maybe a learning experience.Notice that I quoted the whole creed, not just one line from it.That is an example of quoting in context. For example, if you quoted all of the Sheep and Goats parable from Matthew 25, it would be an example of quoting in context. However if I posted "41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." it would be an example of quote mining.It is not quoting that is bad, it is pulling a verse here and a verse there as support for a position. It is the old and still silly idea that the Bible interprets the Bible.The issue is that almost anything can be supported through quote mining and so it is valueless.

---

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Certainly. Glad to.Taking one verse from:

quote:

---

Matthew 28

​

1In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

​

2And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

​

3His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:

​

4And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.

​

5And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.

​

6He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

​

7And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

​

8And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.

​

9And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

​

10Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.

​

11Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.

​

12And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers,

​

13Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept.

​

14And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you.

​

15So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.

​

16Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

​

17And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

​

18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

​

19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

​

20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

---

is taking it out of context.

---

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

You have quoted 20 verses in the chapter.Please tell me why THESE verses : Make this verse : not relevant to demonstrating that Christ at that moment, before His ascension, possessed all authority and could be thought as Ruler of the Universe ?What is it about verses 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17, 19 and 20 which make my reference to verse 18 as NOT LEGITIMATE to make the point that I made?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

They place verse 18 in context.The passage from Matthew 28 (whoever wrote it) is a continuing example of the evolution of the Great Commission by the folk who wrote the different Gospels, and is actually an interesting subject.I'll repeat what I have posted on the subject in the past.

quote:

---

Actually living the Great Commission is a bummer. Trying to do what Jesus charged us to do was a hard sell in his day and near impossible today. So shortly after his death the various folk trying to market the franchise started making the product more attractive, selling the sizzle instead of the steak.

​

That is not just a new tactic, by the time the author of John's Gospel was writing the advertising it was pretty obvious. Look at the Great Commission as found in Matthew 28:

​

quote:

---

16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
  —"Matthew 28:16-20:"

---

​

"19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."

​

Obey what I have commanded you.

​

If you read all of Matthew, you will find that what we are commanded to do is "try to do our best for others."

​

There is nothing in there about salvation, nothing in there about an afterlife, nothing in there about any benefits that the disciples would get. It is about going and doing, about feeding and clothing and seeing that folk have clean water and shelter and jobs.

​

By the time the advertiser came back and revised Mark adding the "Long Ending", the Great Commission had begun to change.

​

quote:

---

14Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

​

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

​

19After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.
  —"Mark 16"

---

​

Originally Mark ended with just an empty tomb and the women running away afraid, but that was a really hard sell. So at sometime someone came back and added the parts from Mark 16:10-20.

​

This version is much different. It now has some real benefits, salvation just for believing and getting baptized and the chance to do some really neat tricks. It is a much easier sale, all you need to do is go profess the "Good News" rather than just doing little stuff like feeding and clothing and shelter. AND it offers a real reward.

​

Then along came the author of John, and he makes the deal even sweeter.

​

quote:

---

19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

​

21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
  —"John 20"

---

​

Now the doors are locked and Jesus still shows up and for the first time, the disciples are given the power to even override GOD. If they forgive sins the sins are forgiven but if they don't forgive sins then the person is damned.

​

Now that is real power.

​

This trend of marketing Christianity has continued on down until today.

​

You gotta admit that telling someone all they need to do is believe and get baptized is a whole lot easier to sell then telling them they gotta do for the least of these with no guarantee of reward. And you gotta admit telling folk "I have the power to damn you" is a pretty strong incentive.

---

The story changed and evolved over time as different writers took put their words and positions into the story.

---

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Jar, what you seemed to have done in this above post is simply send an army of red herrings into the discussion."Well, I have this problem over here, and that problem over there, and this other problem over here, and this difficulty over there."I don't think I got an answer to my question about why the 19 verses make my reference to the one verse untrue based on out of context quoting.But I will address your post this with a brief word.Yes, Matthew does present a high and difficult demand. It is not only difficult it is nearly impossible. True indeed. I agree with that part of your post.Having said that, God did not expect people to muster up their natural strength to do as Jesus taught. In fact, that is why in His sovereignty He includes another Gospel of John to CLARIFY and SPECIFY that man needs ANOTHER LIFE. Man needs a different life which IS able to fullfill the lofty demand of Christ in Matthew.SO then, the context of the whole New Testament (remember context now!) is that man needs to be BORN AGAIN with another divine life which, in mingling and saturating man's life IS able to live up to the lofty teachings of Jesus Christ.IN FACT - what the Christian life REALLY is, is Jesus Christ Living On the Earth AGAIN, but THIS TIME, He is living in you and in me and as many as received Him to be born again AND who abide in Him that He may abide in them.Our life cannot make it to do, teach, or fullfill the "great commission". So the NT does not end with Matthew. It includes JOHN so that the Spirit of God may elaborate how the seeker after God needs ANOTHER LIFE to be compounded into his life - BORN ANEW, BORN AGAIN, BORN FROM ABOVE, BORN OF WATER AND OF THE SPIRIT.Matthew needs John.The high DEMAND in Matthew needs the adaquate SUPPLY in John.The high STANDARD in Matthew requires the All-Sufficient grace and life in John as John reveals how this Jesus Christ will come into the believers and live again in them in union, mingling, and mutual abiding.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Whatever.Yes, the author of John was a revisionist, trying out a new marketing ploy.Maybe YOU can't fulfill the Great Commission as outlined by the writer of Matthew, but I believe I have been charged to try and will be judged on how well I perform.Salvation is something else entirely, a perk added to make the sale easier by the writer of John it seems and it is silly to look to John without looking at the context of how the story evolved over time and from writer to writer.The point is that when you look, for example, at the Great Commission, the earliest version as found in Matthew only talks about what people need to do, the charge, to feed the hungry, comfort the sorrowful, heal the sick and injured, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, teach the children. There is no reward offered, no payment, it is a charge.But over time that message got softened, incentives were added and the work part minimized.

---

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!