EvC Forum: Born Again

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Topic: Born Again

Hyroglyphx

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Message 31 of 388 (611732)
04-10-2011 6:43 PM

Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
04-09-2011 11:12 AM

Re: Rejection Of The New Birth

I honestly don't deserve to be a Christian, based on the expectations of such a person. Unlike the widow and her two mites, I am not at all eager to give all that I have away to the poor.

Probably because that would, in effect, make you poor. Distributing 100% of your wealth in the interest of the poor then makes you poor -- a pointless and self-refuting proposition.

I am, in a word, selfish.

Anyone who serves their self-interests is selfish. Reminds me of Milton Friedman.

Some would suggest that I am coming close to an unpardonable sin. I just want to be left alone. Don't ask me why I don't want to sacrifice for others. I couldn't tell you.

I remember well the incredible exhaustion of never being good enough for God and tormenting yourself trying to appease a standard that could never be met, and the dissonance it caused.

I think after some honest introspection, you'll realize how miserable following God's unrealistic goals are making you.

I don't mean this to condescend you, I'm just expressing that I've been here before with that constant agony and intangible pang in the heart for not being able to measure up.

My earnest suggestion is to stop torturing yourself and let go.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
	Message 17 by Phat, posted 04-09-2011 11:12 AM		Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 32 by mike the wiz, posted 04-10-2011 6:58 PM	Hyroglyphx has replied
	Message 33 by jar, posted 04-10-2011 7:06 PM	Hyroglyphx has replied

Hyroglyphx

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Message 40 of 388 (611749)
04-10-2011 7:47 PM

Reply to: Message 32 by mike the wiz
04-10-2011 6:58 PM

Re: Rejection Of The New Birth

There are no "goals". What you have described is religion or more specifically, legalism.

Under legalism, you might get guilt, but not under grace.

Semantics.

My walk with God, so many times I wanted or expected God would judge me or get angry, and infact He responded with mercy.

How did God communicate with you?

I think Phat has a mix - he is letting religion and philosophies get in there, and you are acting as opportunists, giving your personal testimonies in an attempt to deconvert him, by saying, "don't bother with God, he's fake, he's not there, just forget it".

Sorry, I don't give a shit enough to go chasing after Phat to deconvert him, and I don't get brownie points with a Master if I do. I was giving him an honest reply, not tired, worn out apologetics.

These falsehoods are only testimony of personal experience, they do not describe every experience.

I never said it wasn't an anecdote. But you know, I've known Phat for years, and this self-deprecating theme is a recurring one. I wonder how many earnest, heart-felt prayers the man has uttered, and nothing seems to satiate his hunger.

I know it's much easier to have a scapegoat demon as the perennial fall guy, but at least entertain the possibility that this is the net result of years of the Shame Gospel and fire and brimstone evangelism.

My experience is that there is a growing process, whereby guilt is a very common factor, while you are on milk.

So Phat hasn't achieved level 3 Sorcerer yet like you... Got it... Good to know

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
	Message 32 by mike the wiz, posted 04-10-2011 6:58 PM		mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 46 by mike the wiz, posted 04-10-2011 8:00 PM		Hyroglyphx has replied

Hyroglyphx

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Message 45 of 388 (611758)
04-10-2011 7:57 PM

Reply to: Message 33 by jar
04-10-2011 7:06 PM

Re: Rejection Of The New Birth

I think there are several problems there, first the idea of being good enough for God, as if God really cared.

Yeah, good point.

But I also think the idea of "Let go" is just a cop out, a way to get out of doing what we are charged to do.

And what are we charged to do?

I blame most of that on the Christian Cult of Ignorance and their marketing campaign. I'll admit that what they teach, what Mike-the-Wiz is marketing here, is an easy sell and very, very profitable for the snake oil salesmen, but it is little more than easy sell with no product liability risks.

Won't argue that.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
	Message 33 by jar, posted 04-10-2011 7:06 PM		jar has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 48 by jar, posted 04-10-2011 8:08 PM		Hyroglyphx has not replied

Hyroglyphx

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Message 50 of 388 (611765)
04-10-2011 8:09 PM

Reply to: Message 46 by mike the wiz
04-10-2011 8:00 PM

Re: Rejection Of The New Birth

mike the wiz writes:

You only asserted things in this post. I think it is an emotive post, an unnecessary one aswell

How is it more or less emotive than anything else anyone says?

You already have tried, by telling him the wrong things.

He asked for advice, I gave it. The advice you gave is according to disbelief, he is Christian.

Maybe that's part of the problem. Why treat the symptoms when you can treat the actual cause?

If I gave an atheist Christian advice I would be called an opportunist.

So what if you were?

Why you felt the need to jump to all of those other conclusions, I don't know, I would need to be in your head to know.

Because I've been there from firsthand experience and I know what he's going through. I'm being sympathetic to his plight. But you took it to an extreme like I want to follow him around so I can deconvert him. Really all that does his highlight your mindset because you have to be converting people. I don't. I don't want to convert Phat to the darkside, or whatever it is you think I'm doing.

Phat's a big boy and he can make his own decisions. I was just giving him a look from an outside perspective.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

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	Message 46 by mike the wiz, posted 04-10-2011 8:00 PM		mike the wiz has not replied

Hyroglyphx

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Message 54 of 388 (611769)
04-10-2011 8:20 PM

Reply to: Message 53 by mike the wiz
04-10-2011 8:16 PM

Re: Rejection Of The New Birth

(We study these things every week during bible study. We are selling exactly what Paul wrote.

I think that's probably part of Jar's contention. Jar isn't exactly a Pauline, and if my memory serves me correctly, he thinks Paul bastardized Jesus' gospel.

*Jar, feel free to correct any misconceptions*

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

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	Message 53 by mike the wiz, posted 04-10-2011 8:16 PM		mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 57 by mike the wiz, posted 04-10-2011 8:29 PM	Hyroglyphx has replied
	Message 60 by jar, posted 04-10-2011 8:49 PM	Hyroglyphx has not replied

Hyroglyphx

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Message 62 of 388 (611803)
04-11-2011 8:35 AM

Reply to: Message 57 by mike the wiz
04-10-2011 8:29 PM

Re: Rejection Of The New Birth

As for my attitude, I am sure you think you do phat a service, but infact, I know from experience, as a fellow-Christian, what he is going through, as for many years I battled the legalism of havin to earn God's favour.

No you didn't, Mike. You used to be a whole lot more laid back, objective, submissive and humble in the past. You seem more legalistic to me now that you ever were in the past.

I give spiritual advice - you swear at me and get angry because you think I am trying to earn religious points.

I swear at you? Why? Because I used the word "shit?" It just a word, Mike. Please show me where in the bible that the word "shit" is a "bad word." These are concoctions of a timid and frightened society. It has nothing to do with God. God is simply evoked to give it some kind of authority.

I am not doing anything other than helping phat to see this from a biblical perspective, and yet as usual, because I am an uncompromising Christian, people jump to all manner of conclusions about me, with ad hominem comments, or atleast allusions, such as "browny points".

Just making an observation. You have to be out there actively trying to save people's souls. In fact, that was Jesus' very last commission to his flock. Therefore you have a vested interest in converting people.

True or not true?

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
	Message 57 by mike the wiz, posted 04-10-2011 8:29 PM		mike the wiz has not replied

Hyroglyphx

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Message 101 of 388 (614205)
05-02-2011 5:26 PM

Reply to: Message 100 by jaywill
05-02-2011 4:56 PM

Re: Origins of an Idea

Being born again is not something YOU or I DO. It is something God will do in you.

Where does that leave room for freewill then?

If you want to be born of God you better confess that your Lord and Savior is Jesus Christ and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead.

And what if you have no good reason to assume it? After all, Jesus said if you had even a minute amount of faith that you can tell mountains to throw themselves in to the sea. Since that has never happened, that leaves itself open to interpretation.

Either Jesus was lying, he was mistaken, or no one has faith in Jesus... including you.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
	Message 100 by jaywill, posted 05-02-2011 4:56 PM		jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 105 by jaywill, posted 05-02-2011 10:53 PM		Hyroglyphx has not replied

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