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Author Topic:   what would it take to convert you to the other side
dwise1
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Posts: 5952
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 18 of 139 (581145)
09-13-2010 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by frako
09-13-2010 7:04 PM


Actually, there are two ways I can approach this question:
1. What would it take to remove insurmountable obstacles to my conversion (ie, the severe ethical and practical obstacles)?
and
2. What would do the final trick of turning me (ie, get me past my severe theological problems with Christianity)?
In re #1, the insurmountable obstacles consist mainly of the requirement to believe several things that are blatantly and obviously contrary-to-fact, and the rampant dishonesty that is both practiced zealously and encouraged by the corrupt environment engendered by creationism.
So what would need to happen on this level is for creationists and the Christians they are deceiving to stop teaching blatant falsehoods and stop lying and convert to honesty and truth. And the Christian community would need to encourage honesty and truthful and learning everything they can about the subjects that they make pronouncements about and to stop encouraging the use of lies and deception. Until that happens, I could never possibly even begin to consider converting; question #2 cannot even begin to be addressed until #1 has been resolved.
In re #2, I have strong problems with the theology that would need to resolved. Primarily problems stemming from the theology's assumptions of human infallibility.
I don't see how question #2 could be answered with anything short of direct revelation ... with solid physical evidence backing it up.

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5952
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 23 of 139 (581152)
09-14-2010 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Tram law
09-13-2010 10:50 PM


While viewing the second part, ads kept cropping up for "never-ending pasta bowl". Was that a manifestation of The Noodly One? The Great Flying Spaghetti Monster?
Repent! For it is written: The more pasta, the more life!

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5952
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 63 of 139 (582801)
09-23-2010 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Artemis Entreri
09-23-2010 2:55 PM


BTW the otherside is atheism, not merely a conversion to a new FAITH
True. But the same answers would apply to both situations (a theist becoming an atheist and a theist converting to a different religion), so it would be valid to ask what it would take for a theist to convert to a different religion.
So what would it take?

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dwise1
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Posts: 5952
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 80 of 139 (583074)
09-24-2010 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Artemis Entreri
09-24-2010 1:34 AM


A lot of the reasons that you gave for switching religions fall quite short of the "message from God" you stipulate. Though given that almost anything could be thought of by the individual as a "message from God" or a calling, what would appear as an insufficient reason for us could be seen as a very significant calling by the individual switching.
Disillusionment can certainly be a good cause and one that does deal directly with religion. It appears often in ex-Christians' deconversion stories. It may also figure into evangelical pollster George Barna's observation that most "church-growth" is simply the redistribution of members moving from one church/religion to another. I'm sure that in a number of cases, after trying too many churches and getting disillusioned with each and every one, the individual finally ends up giving up on churches altogether.
Marriage can be a big reason, but it really doesn't deal that much with religion, but rather with family dynamics (including dealing with the in-laws). In many cases, that conversion would be more of a token gesture, though the convert may end up taking the new religion more seriously than the family members who had grown up in that religion.
For example, my father's family having been almost entirely Irish, he was born Catholic. But then one day his father, who had never before had much use for religion, got religious and joined a Protestant church, so in order to keep the family together, my grandmother and the kids all converted too. But then the church leaders cheated him in a business deal and he went back to having no use for religion, but my grandmother remained a devout Protestant for the rest of her long life. My father also attended regularly, but he was becoming thoroughly disillusioned because of the hypocrisy he saw, though he continued to attend regularly for his mother's sake until he turned 21.
My father's uncle, who had remained Catholic, married a non-Catholic who converted to RCC. She became a devout Catholic and used to badger my mother to have us convert too.
Birth -- this is a non-reason. It does not involve switch religions, but only the child's religion being determined by accident-of-birth.
Slavery/Conquest -- Conversion being physically forced on the individual. While this has happened in wide areas, it doesn't really have much bearing on the discussion. Unless we were to be invaded and conquered and the populace were forced to convert.
Though a variation of this is the situation of foreign students being sponsored by and supported by religious groups and then once they're hear are required to convert. We personally knew one such student the Mormons brought in from South America and then tried to force to convert.
Economic advantages. More pervasive that one might think. A plumbing contractor we worked with decided to move to southern Utah. He returned in less than a year. Part of the reason for his return was that he discovered that he could only work part of the year due the ground freezing (hard to do outside trench work under those conditions). But the other part was that, in order to get any work, he would have had to become Mormon.
Similarly, politicians find that in order to get elected, they need to affiliate with established religions that have a large enough voter base.
There would also be social pressures. Conventional wisdom is that some single people join a church looking for a spouse. Two the conservative Christian megachurches here have very large and active singles ministries (the count at one is about 15,000 singles). How many there are truly called to that religion and how many are just nominally members in order to partake in that singles scene?

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