What gives God the right to be "holy"?

It is a regular occurance in debates here at EvC that non-Christians quiz Christians on the reasons that God has for hell. The reasons often track back to this concept of God being holy - here's some recent quotes by Dr Sing: What we have here is an "ultimate" conciousness that decides that it is "holy". It gives its newly created beings free-will, and some rules. A rule gets broken, and because this ultimate being has decided that it is "holy" and rule-breaking is something that cannot be tolerated, its entire creation will suffer. Not content with just wiping out his creation for this perceived slight against its own self-determined holiness, it consigns A&E and all of their descendents to ETERNAL SUFFERING... And this just because God hsa decided that it is holy, and cannot abide rule-breaking.The fact is that God didn't suddenly discover itself holy - if it wants to take on such a mantle, then fair enough, but it is a choice. And it is this choice that leads to hell and eternal suffering.Faith and Belief please...

Uh-uh, I went too far... ah well, tiz a fair cop - ya got me - tiz me, Old Nick, up to me'old tricks. Now, who wants a life of wine, women -or men if you so prefer - and debauchery? Mephisto, have you got that quill?

Is this a necessary requirement of the nature of the monotheistic creator deity? If yes, then clearly God cannot be omnipotent. If no, then God has been subject to some decision - if it didn't come from himself, then again, he is not omnipotent. Now I think we are getting somewhere

I'm sorry, Jaywill, but I had decades of peddling this pseudo-theological drivel, trying to convince myself that it actually makes some kind sense. In this thread I am trying to look at why an ultimate creator deity would have any interest in a "law of God", concepts such as "puchasing" and "custody", having an "enemy of God", etc. This is all just so much anthropomorphisation, and primarily regi-pomorphisation of the concept of deity that it just stinks of God as a construct of man.This thread is about tearing down the obfuscation of your theological babble to reveal it for the nonsense it is - and believe me, I believed the exact same things you do for a great long time.Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

OH NO YOU'RE NOT - (he's behind you!)Sorry, just getting into the season I agree completely, but I was talking of the Christian god, not Yahweh. But I don't mind conflating the two for the sake of this post Obviously, the Christian view of holiness has evolved and been co-opted (corrupted?) from the Judaistic. As you say, Yahweh required separation from the unclean and profane. But not from sin, interestingly. In the Garden, Yahweh is quite happily quizzing A&E face-to-face regarding their fall from grace. The question remains, why does Yahweh require such separation? And do all possible monotheistic creator deities come to the same conclusions regarding the need to be separated from shellfish?

So, the "evil" we have is disobeying daddy's instructions and eating an "apple", and the wrath we have is eternal torment and suffering for billions of sentient creatures. This certainly makes me associate Hitler, Pot, Stalin, etc with God's wrath far more than with any "evil" carried out by A&E. I would find it very difficult to hate a concept so poorly and ill-defined as the Christian god. I hate God no more than I hate the UFOs I used to desperately believe in as a child. I'm just more annoyed at myself for carrying one of those beliefs well past its sell-by date.

For loose interpretations of the word 'breaking', yes I agree. So it is God's choice that these laws exist, and that breaking them has disastrous consequences? Again I ask, why did he choose this. If he had no choice, he is hardly omnipotent and he seems subject to the 'deep magic'. If he choose to make the world this way, then responsibility falls to his choices.

a) If there is no omnipotent creator deity - you can't take it away - all are contingent on each other in our realityb) If there is an omnipotent creator deity - whatever he wants to happen

Who designed the physical world to be the way it is? Who designed it so that when you fall over, there's a chance you will break your neck and spend the rest of your life paralysed?

On the contrary, I think it lies at the heart of the matter, especially if you are claiming that sin and the fall are part of this physical world. In Christian theology, people are going to hell because of the way that God set things up. That's all that matters.

Yep, because I'm trying to redress the balance. We're always told how we failed God's perfect standard, and how we must pay the price. Preached it myself a thousand times. What I am asking is why should God have a perfect standard? And why should we be judged against it? Eve exercised her freewill and the rest of humanity is paying the price for it. But it was God's afront to her choice that is the reason behind the fall and the suffering. Oh, I'm sorry Peg. I was talking about Christian beliefs. You're a JW - you're not Christian - you are a deceit sent by Satan. Didn't you know? Do you know how many times I have preached against you guys - how many conferences I have attended learning how to beat down the satanic influence of the major cults (JWs, Mormons, Christian Scientists, Scientologists, Christadelphians, Armstrongists) It's very very odd being on the outside now, looking back in. It took me to stop being a Christian to recognise you as a Christian. It's a strange world...Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

My Christian life spanning more than twenty years gave me many pleasurable times and gave me the best wife I could hope to have, but as a self-confessed acadmeic and intellectual I do not boast at being deluded for the larger part of my life Err, what?

Yep, but the point of this thread is - why is there any wrath to begin with?

Where "evil" is anything that falls short of the 100% purity insisted by the evangelical Christian god. "evil" is being conned into eating an apple, "evil" is my 9 yr old having to be told three times to tidy his room, "evil" is me telling my wife that I'll be home in five minutes, knowing full well that by the time I have finished my pint, it will be ten minutes, "evil" is telling the Nazi at the door that there's no Jews upstairs.You are being exceptionally disingenuous here Iano, using this word EVIL, when you know full well that we are talking about an unattainable expectation - I have lived and breathed your Gospel for far far longer than you have, and know it rather well...What makes the evangelical Christian god so abhorrent is his 100% expectation - an expectation that results in billions of souls screaming in agony in hell. It is a nonsense of a concept. The salvation offered by Jesus is merely a way of escaping the utterly unreasonable demands of a tyrrant. The evangelical Christian god is not good in any sane view of the word - he is simply a bastardisation of far too many contradictory concepts, and the immense cracks in his definition are shoddily plastered over with pseudo-theological christo-babble, as we see in abundance from Jaywill, and you to some extent (and from me in the past).Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

Apologies - I was severely distracted from this thread. Ok, let's look at the sane view... I would venture to guess that most sane folks do not think that the MEREST HINT of unkindness, selfishness, envy, malice is sufficient to warrant the consequence of ETERNAL SUFFERING IN HELL.It is quite clear from Genesis that god had no problem being in the vicinity of Adam & Eve post-fall - this whole concept of god's required separation, holiness, and inability to be associated with sin has grown in the telling, until we arrive at the modern flaw-ridden and self-contradictory picture you paint.