God and the blind Tailors

Note to Mod or Admin. I may of placed this in the wrong area, please feel free to move it.God and the blind TailorsI am an open theist Christian minister,(aka neo-theism) ‘church’ owner and proprietor of two NP Christian humanitarian missions. I managed to make it through seminary and receive my MA a couple of decades ago. Just a little background.~ forward as they say;I think religions are only attempts to assign attributes to the creator of the universe. We all worship the same God whether we know it or not! What I mean by that kind of blasphemous statement is best understood by a metaphor. Imagine a model (God) is being fitted for a suit of clothes (the religions) by freshmen student tailors at the local university.Well after a few days all the students have their suites (religions) ready of the model (God) to try on. None fit perfectly, but some are nearly perfect. And the worst ones are like a potato sack! Well of course being a Christian I feel that my students suit fit’s the very best! The cut and style is nearly perfect.So you see even though the other religions do not describe God more closely they are not as right as my religion is. I choose the Hebrew God (rather God chose me). I hope this makes some sense, although it won’t solve many problems perhaps it will shed some light on my beliefs.:{> Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.

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Hi Revcrosshugger, welcome to EvC,
I think religions are only attempts to assign attributes to the creator of the universe. We all worship the same God whether we know it or not!

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What about religious sects that have no diety, or their "deity" is an object. Why would they even need to "tailor a suit," when their 'deity' is the sun?
What about those that don't worship at all, they are just diest?
What about atheist?

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Thanks for the warm welcome and the rather chilly questions! Now all this is just my beliefs, which I don’t think goes against scripture. That said the religious sects that have no deity have no need of a tailor. The Buddhists for example, while some do have supernatural beliefs they have no deity like the Hebrew God or Ra (pronounced Ree or R-e, are-e) etc.The suit was simply an analogy. For example lets say I worshiped Annu as the Egyptians called Ra. I would say that he was the head of the Heliopolitan ennead (an attribute) At sunrise he is Khepera, (an attribute) represented by the sacred scarab (another attribute) so on and so forth. Still I would be assigning these attributes to the creator. Are they correct? Who knows, I for one think not. Still God remains God.

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So you see even though the other religions do not describe God more closely they are not as right as my religion is.

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Care to support that with some evidence?

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I don’t mind telling you the evidence I use to support the Christian God. I use the KCA to get a undetermined God into the universe then work backwards to support it.First I think biblical prophesy supports the Hebrew God and Christianity. The fulfilled prophesy. Then I use the bible. The bible is written on several different levels, there are parable, songs, poetry, letters to churches prophesy and history as well as practical advice and more. Don't get me wrong the bible is not a science book nor a history book etc, its a primarily manual on how to save ones soul, and a book to help the human race understand God.Biblical history is being verified by archeology. Additionally, the bible is one of the most accurate ancient document we have. Recently a silver scroll was found. The location of the find and analysis of the Hebrew on the scroll confirm a date close to 600 BC, perhaps earlier a long time before the capture of Jerusalem and the Babylonian exile. The significance of this find can scarcely be overstated. It confirms this section of Numbers was written at least 2,600 years ago. This Old Testament passage is 400 years older than the oldest Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts, and perhaps even older yet. The silver scroll silver scrolls are not only the oldest extant (still in existence) text of the Bible, they also provide compelling support to the authorship of the first five books of the Bible by Moses. I use other evidences to support my paradigm but for brevity I will save them for another response.

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I hope this makes some sense, although it won’t solve many problems perhaps it will shed some light on my beliefs.

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I beleive this sheds light into the arrogance of belief and faith.

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With all due respect the arrogance you speak of seems to originate elsewhere.Thanks for your reply.;}> Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.

I'm not ignoring you Ms Granny Magda, my recreational computer time is limited, I will answer you soon. I hope that I clarified the claim I made. Nevertheless I thought that Onifre was asking me to support why I would say that the Christian religion is a more logical choice.Be back soon nice forum btw...: }>

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Aaah, you're a Baha'i!
  —Granny Magda

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Well my beliefs are somewhat similar, but not the same by a long shot! God is simply God, my beliefs are personal but I do have some mild evangelizing to do, however I whisper my faith not shout it, as Paul tells us ; ” Defend our faith at every turn but do it with reverence and gentleness’. Of course being somewhat a redneck hillbilly I am working on the ego thing, it’s the last scourge of humanness that remains with a full on setting.

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Seriously though, Christianity seems an odd choice for someone of this opinion. The Bible is not just explicitely monotheistic, but jealously, even violently so. It even goes so far as to demand the slaughter of heretical believers.

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Yes in its history that’s true, however I wasn’t around thousands of years ago the ”slaughter’ was more like justifiable homicide or self defense if you ask me, additionally after Jesus arrived even that changed.

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Some believers have been only too happy to oblige.

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I could say I am going to go on a killing spree ordered by Granny. Would that make granny a murderer? In the modern era killing for the lord such as aborting slayings are simply murder by a nutcase. How could he be a Christian at the moment of the killing when that goes directly against the teachings of Jesus. There is even scripture that tells us at least one sin is death. No repentance possible.

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This seems like a strange attitude for a single-yet-plural god such as the one you describe.

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Thank you I like strange, normal is boring and mundane. Kurt Godel was very strange but his genius was second only to Einstein.

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I'm sure that you will seek to explain this by reference to human failure to properly understand God's message.

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Yes there are demonstrable cases of that in history, very easy to prove. The Muslims are experiencing the very same thing today, however their religion may allow it, maybe they better call in their God for a second fitting?

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My problem is that if the Bible authors could get something as important as this so horribly, horribly wrong, why should we listen to them at all?

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The authors got nothing wrong. The main message is that you must believe in God. Secondly the message is that you should accept Jesus Christ as a Christian and repent. Those two messages have made it, so the authors have done their job.

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My other general problem with the idea is that it seems that such a nebulous god could never be supported with any kind of evidence: it would be impossible to pin down. At least most religions make some kind of concrete claims that we can compare to reality (mainly coming up trumps in my view). More than any other kind of religious belief, your kind of god is dependant on pure faith and your personal desire for a benign deity.

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I think you misunderstood at least part of my post. I believe the Hebrew/Christian religion. And I use many evidences to support my beliefs, I usually begin with a cosmological argument for the existence of God to get god into the universe and then work backwards from our era to describe why I think this God is personal. Although I do use the KCA* unlike Dr William Craig I use another method to describe how the cause (Read as God) that caused the universe to begin to exist is a personal sentient cause/God.; {>The KCA is a first cause cosmological argument for the existence of God. If you are unfamiliar with the modern version of the KCA Google KCA William Craig. I like Craig but Robert Koon is bring even a better cosmological argument to the table. Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.

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But if it is really the potatoes that are made in god's image, then your well tailored suit is actually the worst of the bunch. The worshipers of the SPM (Swimming Potato Monster) are the best tailors. You seem to be striving for some form of unitarianism, but you just can't break yourself away from an "Us/Them" mentality. But there is no need for you to despair: when the One True God does eventually call you to his service, this will no longer be a problem. In the mean time, stick with whatever religious delusions best suit you.
  —genitals

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What a wonderful bit of nothing. Afraid of real debate? Its best if you keep making your juvenile remarks and stay away from real debate like a good little boy. BTW, I usually use the iggy feature when someone has nothing to say but spew hate speech, the next time you feel the need to insult me with your inane gibberish you will be ignored.; }>Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.

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Thank you for the exchange rev ...
Hope things are well with you.
Some have accused me of worse crimes than open theism. I commend you on your ability to distinguish between real[ity] and roman[ce].

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Likewise, but you haven't been in an exchange with me ...yet, and you will know it when it happens. (hee hee) BTW, Open theism is simply liberal theism.

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I think religions are only attempts to assign attributes to the creator of the universe.

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I find it difficult to believe that you really think only that. It appears to over simplify things tremendously. Within the intricately woven realm of the twenty-first century?s plural societies remains an awareness; a widespread desire to gain from significant impacts provided by indigenous faith based religions.

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Well I am hardly in control of what you think! I could write a novel about open theism and how it relates to traditional theology. The limitations of message boards demand brevity.

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Increasing demand sprouts forth in favor of reliable and accessible knowledge wherein we may find solutions to the challenges time & consequence deliver. Where indigenous religions have historically laid the cornerstones for civilizations throughout history, the subsequent evolution of various forms of religious thought directly influence significant world events, as well as international relations and circumstance. These implications reach past assigning attributes.
In the end, watering down the process mankind is collectively experiencing to a measly attempt at classifying externals may appear to be short in coming.

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A well written little writ of nonexistent wit (just kidding, it just sounded good you can use it if you want). I did intend to say that no religion was 100% correct. We are only right by degrees. Uncertainty makes sure of that.

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We all worship the same God whether we know it or not!

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Perhaps you are correct ...
Yet, some contend to know that God desires sacrafice, while others hope the Father desires mercy.
Some will go to war to protect their investment. Others will be ridiculed and murdered to live theirs.
The two are mutually exclusive.

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The leaders are evil by default. I can not speak for other religions but red letter Christianity is merciful and good.

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What I mean by that kind of blasphemous statement is best understood by a metaphor. Imagine that a model (God) is being fitted for a suit of clothes (the religions) by freshmen student tailors at the local university.

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That doesn't seem so blasphemous imho, but rather interesting.
Imagine that everytime the poignant, and oh, so adorable, model is fit by the most proficient tailors of the semester that, without wasting a nary o' time, the perfected suit is cleverly intercepted, and - as cleverly - later returned, by the resident pranksters of the university who seem to desire nothing more or nothing less than to add insult to injury by implementing less than desirable alterations which cause the, once fine, suit to bunch up in all of the wrong places, and so, unawares of the mischievous youths supposedly innocent antics, the suit is donned - most disastrously - in preparation of picture day.
Real funny ...

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Yes I have had fun thinking about the comparison myself.

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Well after a few days all the students have their suites (religions) ready for the model (God) to try on. None fit perfectly, but some are nearly perfect. And the worst ones are like a potato sack! Well of course being a Christian I feel that my students fit the very best! The model is dapper and fine, not perfect but nearly so."

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I enjoyed the potato sack bit! Although, it may be unfortunate that so many right wing fundamentalists have missed the spirit of the potato sack, instead embracing, what often seems to appear as, the spirit of the emperor's 'new clothes'.

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Yes I rather detest the con men that claim to be Christians asking old women for their life savings etc. That is repulsive. Those false prophets are criminal in Gods eyes. However you may not be so liking me when I tell you the enemy of my enemy is my friend regardless. I do believe that there is a spiritual world and a spiritual war going on right now. So although I do not agree with the doctrine of the Pat Roberson’s of the world, they are more my ally than say Richard Dawkins.

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As a self prolaimed 'christian', do you ever wonder why your various suit manufacturering plants are unable to employ the same template within their assembly lines? Please don't suggest it is because variety is the spice of Life ...
That is obvious.

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Jeans are Jeans God is God that is a given. I think you are taking the metaphor a bit too far.I see the rest of your post is a bit personal and has little to do with the subject etc. I don’t respond to personal remarks, especially if they are malicious.So ~ ;{>Has anyone got a ball gag for Baily? I see he has even answered my post Ms Granny Granny Magda. Oh Dan please correct your spelling I highlighted the errors in red. You are welcome. Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.

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I don't think you've actually chosen the Hebrew God. Sounds more like you've chosen the God of the NT or the God designed by the Greeks after the destruction of the Temple.

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Well say what you will, I am sure you know I do not agree that Jesus was not the Hebrew God in the flesh, however I respect your views, I simply disagree. All evidence for the Christian God or Hebrew God is created by man, the only question is what is divinely inspired and what is not. I will respond to the rest of your post shortly, at least you seen fit to leave the personal remarks where they belong.;{>

OK I did it.; {>See it doesn't work I tried it and every combination what gives? I post on umm' eight boards this is the only one I have this problem on. Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.

Test (again) reply button..See same thing... I am using a firefox browser....thats all... I give up ....I was going to manually type in the name of the member but I received so many replies that its too time consuming...; {>Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.

Oh in the other forums when I use the reply function quote tags are automatically placed around the block of font.Then when its posted the reply reads like ;Post By So and So ...I see nothing in the reply space. Oh well...If it helps, I will do it every time.; {>Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.

I will use the reply function from now on and thanks so much for the assistance.;}>Oh something i just discovered! I used the peek (I thought it was a quick preview)just now and the codes for tags were exposed. So that has helped more than anything!; {>Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.

Rev Replies; Well I apologize, it was pretty, but I was becoming frustrated because your style is difficult to understand at times. Ha! My style is not nearly as happy (although a disingenuous happy) & witty as yours! My style is more like one of my favorite artists songs prelude in e minor (Chopin). Kind of sad with a biting (maybe nibbling) desperate inevitably to it. Oops a typo or perhaps a Freudian slip! I meant to say that more than likely NO religion has everything 100% correct. Sorry my friend. I am happy you did not trounce me for that! Perhaps religion does hold so much on the line! I think as pastors we have a certain responsibility, and of course that responsibility is teaching. If the pastor or religious leader is teaching questionable doctrine perhaps the students should read their thumping manuals and challenge the teacher Mashiach is the only flesh and blood leader without sin. That said I equate control by human leaders with evil in the overwhelming number of cases. So I would say that many Christian and other religious leaders are evil by default. its a general statement. Of course there are good leaders. Good Christian leaders, good Jewish leaders and good Islamic leaders speaking in a causal sense. As I said I am sincere and preach my doctrine. I am qualified to teach in all 50 states (after obtaining a certificate), and have life experience as well as what I think was a personal revelation from God. (Don't worry it was a harmless one!).So, seeing that I could be a teacher and have been (qualified to teach) for over thirty years, and you are a ? I suggest that you should cease and desist from attempting to guess my abilities and certainly stop guessing my sincerity. Well that is a ignorant statement. I am rather outraged that you think God has seen fit to make you the judge of my beliefs. Such blind arrogance. I am amused that you think that you have a reason to be arrogant, judging by the archives you dont. I do wish you would resort to using plain English. That fluffy prose does nothing to wow me nor does it add anything to the accuracy or credibility of your claims and statements. I have no idea what you mean by I have calmed your oceans. If I have bestowed a Malia Kai to you, well that is wonderful! However would you define what you meant by that statement?What do you mean when you say that I have effectively exposed any threat of RLC? Why do you use the word threat? Its all near gibberish to me. What a ignorant statement. Truly ignorant. My life's work demonstrates my sincerity and as for genuine who knows what you mean by that. BTW my church ABOTCC (Apocalyptic Bearer Of The Cross Church) as well as my two christian humanitarian missions Mountain Manna Mission (M&M) and Mission of the Crosses (MC)are all op public record and are available on request with a large SASE and a couple of dollars for the trip to the court house and making copies. Perhaps one day God will make you my peer,judge and jury, until then you can keep your ignorant (because they are demonstrably ignorant) personal ruminations strictly personal? Thank you! For the record, I have an established doctrine and I am not here to seek approval from my peers. I already have approval in the form of a church two missions and the paper hanging on the wall. So why you think that your uninvited opinion of my personal issues mean anything is beyond me! Of course I would rather this be a cordial experience, but your insolent manner is making that difficult. I have suspected your style hides your true nature, and outbursts such as the above lends credence for that suspicion. Why dont you come out of your prose closet and maybe then we will not waste time with the kids gloves. Actually you have only criticized me personally with no evidence nor proof to challenge my beliefs. Hint; drop the mind reading attempts resist the urge to hide behind that mask of sarcasm and disingenuous friendliness. Yes I rather detest the con men that claim to be Christians asking old women for their life savings etc. That is repulsive. Those false prophets are criminal in Gods eyes. Thought I love Israel she reminds me of that con man, if not for the USA (and Jesus) she would not exist. No you think I am a false prophet. By design or by mistake. I can tell you if I am a false prophet Satan has me so fooled I cant see it, maybe Jesus will forgive that if its true, remember anything is possible in this universe nothing is impossible. However my claims are backed by scripture so I might not be Kosher, but I am a red letter Christian. You shouldnt equate avoiding with ignorance or even a intentional tactic. I simply like to pick my own battles or discussions. I would rather start another thread than attempt to cover several novel length subjects within the framework of one thread. It dilutes the original intent of the thread and becomes boo coo confusing after a short while. Well the blind watchmaker may be a pressure cooker allowing ignorant ideas to harmlessly cook away to nothing. But if you are speaking Yin and yang I agree, and have in my writings and public speaking alluded that in this universe the bad must be balanced by the good, everything is necessary. You should read drawings black box written by a apologists on our side. Nevertheless, I am thankful for everything in a strange way. To be fair, I did not say that Richard Dawkings work wasnt useful. Just playing. Repeating that God is God regardless of the attributes assigned to him. The descriptions etc are only the various religions (as I have said). Please I was using the metaphor for your convince converse with me sans the wit and my language. I was using the metaphor analogies to illustrate only a portion of my ideas not my entire post. You knew that right? As one of my heroes Barney fife would say you have to nip these things in the bud, otherwise they get out of hand, however I think we are learning to speak to one another, maybe it will take time? BTW insults taunts etc are like road rage, its not the guy that cuts you off that enrages you its all the ones that come before him that enrages you. its a cumulative thing Bailey. I will attempt to answer some questions below; What do you mean by a standard preference? Allow me to rephrase the original statement instead of using the cut and style comparison. I simply meant that more than likely no religion is 100% correct in describing God. Lets say just to clarify that the traditional Christian religion was 90% correct. Then Open theism was 89% correct, then the Jewish beliefs were 80% (hee hee) correct ..and so on with Levay Satanism maybe being .05% correct. See what I mean? There are variant traditions evident in most religions not just Christianity. That is because as time goes along its arrow new evidence emerges first century Christianity was different than twenty-first Christianity for several reasons, not the least being society changes and attempts to (wrongly) change religion along with other reasons.Nevertheless, I think that the main message gets out, and that message is that God lives and there is a book that describes him. The message tells us to read and study the book, use your common sense, research, learn as much as you can and believe what you must. Being righteously reactive is not an indication of guilt. It results a lifetime of debating with hostile atheists and ignorant people who are themselves violent and reactionary. Maybe you have a yes man personality like one of those head nodding dolls in a Ricans brothers lowrider. Or maybe your paradigm is one of love and peace, (although you [veiled] demeanor suggest entirely otherwise!).I think that I see the world for what it is, a battle ground for souls, both temporal and spiritual. I do attempt to bring levity into debate when applicable, but when met with sarcasm and insult, well, my playful attitude pretty much exits the building! So, your strange mix feigning friendship then stabbing one in the back isnt alien to me, I grew up with a alcoholic in the family. So I know how to handle your somewhat Jeckel and Hyde personality and maybe with some practice we can learn to communicate. Was it you that criticized me for being thin skinned? Be sure it were you that first shot a insult across my bow. Har har. Load the cannon boyz he is attemptin hang canvas an' run into the wind Ha I contribute in my small way by planting seeds. In time they will grow in you and hopefully shape your paradigm towards my reality. Hey brother may I ask do you identify with any religion?One more thing brother. If you want to drop the sarcasm and the mild insults I will be happy to do the same. I like you in a strange way however I will be honest and say I do not trust you, but I will thank you for the debate, well what there was of it, most of this was just interoffice gossip and personal bs.; }> Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.

Thanks for your correction, I should of written those of us that worship a God, worship the same God.; {>

Well I agree with your first sentence. I have to disagree with the second. Maybe I should say that it depends if one is a believer. That the religion describes or is made to fit the religion that doesn’t make too much sense. Christianity is made to fit Christianity? Its not an impossibility but I feel its not too probable. A religion describes the wishes and the attributes of the deity. Of course if you are an atheist/etc observer ”looking in’ I think your assessment would be more valid. Again I feel your statement sounds better if one is an atheist or non believer. In prehistory, when religions began* I feel like my idea of one God was valid. Early man were worshiping the creator even if they thought they were worshiping say a fertility deity. Yes, my ideas are arrogant I suppose, that wouldn’t make them wrong would it? I definitively wouldn't preach a sermon on the subject (I am maddeningly traditional the rare times that I do preach. So the one God thing is just some thoughts really, and if I were proven wrong it wouldn’t change anything. Upon self reflection I suppose my ideas are a way of simplifying a big mess! Or parents being parents would indoctrinate the children into their religion, perhaps brain washing and inserting the punch list that Bailey (and yourself) provided. Thanks for your reply.;{>

Disclaimer; I think it was Bailey who pointed out that I am very arrogant etc. I would like to say that I don't pretend to know anything with a 100% certainty, or in some cases a 1% certainty! I am simply throwing ideas out there.Anyway please don't mistake my style for arrogance, I am open to all ideas and faiths including all beliefs and non beliefs.That said...... onward! ~ Allow me comment on your last sentence first? I can not stress how correct you are! My philosophy of life and the 'here after' demand that nothing is certain in this universe. I think God designed it with that feature being certain.Yes God certainly designed the universe to be uncertain. Probabilities and chaos rule baby! They rule by the will of God. IMO.Now for your first statement. I am not exactly sure what you mean when you wonder why God reveals himself in many different ways. If you mean when God manifests in this temporal universe by the bush that does not consume or voices or visions or even Jesus (a special circumstance), I think its precisely because God has no physical form even though a couple of biblical figures allegedly viewed him. IMO God is atemporal and has no form that we would recognize.I hope I have clarified some things for you and thanks for your reply brother Brian....;{> Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.