God and the blind Tailors

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I think religions are only attempts to assign attributes to the creator of the universe.

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Actually, I would say that religions are an attempt to assign attributes to the universe.

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We all worship the same God whether we know it or not!

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Religions developed locally, so really people aren't all worshiping the same god. They are worshiping the god to which they have assigned the attributes of their area.

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Well after a few days all the students have their suites (religions) ready of the model (God) to try on. None fit perfectly, but some are nearly perfect. And the worst ones are like a potato sack! Well of course being a Christian I feel that my students suit fit’s the very best! The cut and style is nearly perfect.

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Actually, the model is different for each student. The model was limited to their respective areas and civilization. So each suit fits the area for which it was designed perfectly.Christianity is actually displaced, IMO.

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So you see even though the other religions do not describe God more closely they are not as right as my religion is. I choose the Hebrew God (rather God chose me). I hope this makes some sense, although it won’t solve many problems perhaps it will shed some light on my beliefs.

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I don't think you've actually chosen the Hebrew God. Sounds more like you've chosen the God of the NT or the God designed by the Greeks after the destruction of the Temple.Different time, different needs, different suit.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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My point was that religion is more than simply assigning attributes to a Deity.

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It involves life.
It involves love.
It involves family.
It involves politics.
It involves traditions.
It involves corruption.
It involves civilizations.
It involves much more than you wish to reduce it to.

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It also includes the surrounding physical environment besides political environment. That's why I feel a religion is made to fit the region, not so much a creator of everything. When religions began, people only knew of their own environment.For the most part, those raised with a specific religion will feel that religion fits their needs better than another when they decide to embrace a religion because of all the things you listed above.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Granny Magda writes:

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Seriously though, Christianity seems an odd choice for someone of this opinion. The Bible is not just explicitly monotheistic, but jealously, even violently so. It even goes so far as to demand the slaughter of heretical believers. Some believers have been only too happy to oblige.

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This seems like a strange attitude for a single-yet-plural god such as the one you describe.

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I'm sure that you will seek to explain this by reference to human failure to properly understand God's message. My problem is that if the Bible authors could get something as important as this so horribly, horribly wrong, why should we listen to them at all?

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The authors got nothing wrong. The main message is that you must believe in God. Secondly the message is that you should accept Jesus Christ as a Christian and repent. Those two messages have made it, so the authors have done their job.

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And you made it through seminary, you say. Interesting.I agree the writers weren't necessarily wrong. I would say that dogma or tradition is wrong. The authors wrote for a specific audience in their own time. They didn't write to become part of a Holy Book or to support other writers.The message of the OT is not that one must believe in the Hebrew God. The message was that if the Hebrews followed God's commands, he would be their god, all would go well and he would protect them from their enemies.The NT message is not that one should accept Jesus as a Christian and repent. The message from Jesus to the Jews (Judaism) was to repent. Paul's message to the Greeks (Christians) was to repent. Nothing say that one should accept Jesus as a Christian.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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purpledawn writes:

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It also includes the surrounding physical environment besides political environment. That's why I feel a religion is made to fit the region, not so much a creator of everything.

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Well I agree with your first sentence. I have to disagree with the second. Maybe I should say that it depends if one is a believer. That the religion describes or is made to fit the religion that doesn’t make too much sense. Christianity is made to fit Christianity? Its not an impossibility but I feel its not too probable. A religion describes the wishes and the attributes of the deity. Of course if you are an atheist/etc observer ”looking in’ I think your assessment would be more valid.

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It helps if you read what I wrote. Region, not religion. It wasn't a typo.

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purpledawn writes:

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When religions began, people only knew of their own environment.

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Again I feel your statement sounds better if one is an atheist or non believer. In prehistory, when religions began* I feel like my idea of one God was valid. Early man were worshiping the creator even if they thought they were worshiping say a fertility deity.

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It reads the same whether one has religion or one is religion free. What supports your idea of one god in the early history of man. From what I've read, many ancient religions were pantheists. You seem to be saying there is only one supreme being in existence and that ancients, even though they were worshiping gods with different attributes, were really only worshiping one god. They just didn't know it.Of course the other side of that is that there are many supreme beings and those who only worship one with many attributes are really worshiping the many gods under one name and just don't know it.

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purpledawn writes:

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For the most part, those raised with a specific religion will feel that religion fits their needs better than another when they decide to embrace a religion because of all the things you listed above.

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Or parents being parents would indoctrinate the children into their religion, perhaps brain washing and inserting the punch list that Bailey (and yourself) provided. Thanks for your reply.

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That's what I said. Rephrasing doesn't make it different.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Hmm’ I had misplaced my reading glasses. No wonder it made no sense! Ok,the religion is made to fit the region? How do you come to that conclusion?

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I gave my reasoning in Message 10 and Message 23.

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purpledawn writes:

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You seem to be saying there is only one supreme being in existence and that ancients, even though they were worshiping gods with different attributes, were really only worshiping one god. They just didn't know it.

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Yes, exactly.

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purpledawn writes:

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Of course the other side of that is that there are many supreme beings and those who only worship one with many attributes are really worshiping the many gods under one name and just don't know it.

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Ha, yes I suppose so. Could be but I will pervert Mr octman's principle and say that one God is simple while many simply complicates the matter. I am a monotheist and a Christian (on and the same most would agree).

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Actually, no god is the simplest, but irrelevant. The point is you don't actually know how many gods there are. You accept what your religion has decreed, just as others accept what their religion has decreed and others are religion free.You have nothing to show that there is without a doubt only one god and not many gods. You could just be lumping them all together.

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With all due respect you didn’t say that specifically, Wait! I better add this so as not to be accused of not reading a post; In Brian’s list he did mention family, if he meant nurture well, I stand corrected.Or maybe I have missed something completely if so please enlighten me?

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What you missed was to make a point.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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How did my thread get hijacked?

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Actually, you hijacked your own thread. You let it go off topic Message 52. If you can't hold yourself in check, why whine about others?You spent more time "laughing" making rude personal comments instead of seriously addressing the various thoughts provided concerning your analogy in the OP.If you can't handle the scholars, then get back to talking with us common folk.As I said in Message 55, you don't actually know how many gods there are. You accept what your religion has decreed, just as others accept what their religion has decreed and still others are religion free.You have nothing to show that there is without a doubt only one god and not many gods. Christianity may just be lumping them all together for the sake of simplicity.As has been asked earlier in this thread by others, what makes your religion right other than you are comfortable with it?So the options are no god, one god, or many gods.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Why complain? Because its my thread? Yes that's it! I may of 'let it go off topic, but I did not derail it. I am not a moderator, if I were I would said something earlier. So again please stay on topic.

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Maybe you should have taken the time to get your feet wet in existing topics and getting to know the community before taking on the responsibility of your own topic.What was the point in opening a thread if you don't want to deal with different or opposing ideas?

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I am tired of going over the same thing again and again and again like some kind of redundant energizer bunny beating his little furry head against a wall of Christian hate speech.

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My posts contained no Christian hate speech, so why not answer the questions or issues I raised? You put forth the idea that all religions worship the same god whether they know it or not. The only thing you keep repeating is that you're a Christian and monotheistic. IOW, because you're a Christian you believe as a Christian. Big surprise!Your opening post still leaves the options of no god, one god, or many gods. You have not provided a line of reasoning that would explain why one option is any more valid than the other.Pity, this could have been a really interesting discussion.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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It's not really organised religions I'm against, it's the forcing of these beliefs onto others that annoys me. It's the rampant arrogance of these 'saved' people who have to shout their salvation from the rooftops and verbally condemn all others who annoy me. I'm quite happy for people to have a faith but keep it to themselves, stop indoctrinating kids and spreading hate all the time.

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I've always maintained that the OT is an incredible collection of texts, but that is all it is, it is not a magical book written by God, and it is not to be taken literally. Literalists are insulting the Bible and it's authors, and are looking for a gimmick to support their weak faith.

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Amen!

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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The point of the anology is that you are just as blind as any of the other men so you cannot tell if you're particular religion is any better than anyone elses and that god is probably more than what you think he is from the little part of him that you have investigated.

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That makes more sense. I'd forgotten about that parable.:{> I figured it was a face with a mustache and beard.
Possibly Jesus? Edited by purpledawn, : No reason given.

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Do you think RCH will understand just how bad he's butchered the lesson from it with his OP?

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No, I think he's too busy admiring their perfect suit.There are so many parables from other religions and cultures that also teach us lessons. I enjoy reading some of the Jewish references to Bible stories. They seem to have more life than the Christian versions. The Jews aren't as averse to referring to legends as the Christians.We can learn from so many different directions. I also find the Native American stories fascinating, although some have been tainted by Christianity, theirs' are the religions that developed in the US. A shame we've probably lost most, if not all, of the stories from the woodland tribes.Maybe Rev will still read this thread, gel, and regroup to try again.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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In any case as I said I will ONLY respond to a post that has NO personal content.

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My posts had no personal content and no hate speech. Message 10, Message 24, Message 48, Message 55, Message 63, and Message 68.I can't say the same for all your posts and especially this final one, (Message 93). It is unworthy of one who claims to be a follower and teacher for Christ. In these forums, self-control is very important. One should choose words wisely and not spare the editing. It is wise to heed constructive criticism concerning this forum.Catholic Scientist's Message 84 didn't contain any personal or hate speech either. I'm very interested to hear you response concerning the blind men and the elephant.Now if you want to get this thread back on track, address Catholic Scientist's post and move forward. Stop flaunting credentials.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz