Many Christians Lack Responsibility

Perhaps you may allow us unbelivers (aka unmikes) to question your belief system (or not as the case may be).Does it make you feel important to speak for God (or in your evident case god)?

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Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis BaconThe more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

Now you have also mentioned logic. I am very, VERY happy to discuss it.Is it NOT a contradiction, to judge God's standards of morals as "sin" and "injust" etc.....and be "righteous", according to a biblical definition?This is the problem - you can't discuss what is right and wrong, from your own feelings, as this is idolatry. A bible study can show this. (I recommend Genesis TV, sky channel 592, 9pm on Mondays)...There is a series which attempts to understand the bible in depth.We can have our own morals, and that is up to us. So I could personally choose, as Ian Brady did, to conclude that "everything is lawful". Therefore I can now rape and murder according to my own morals.So you see Brian, logically you can't just represent some kind of salt-of-the-earth atheist-standard, but infact ALL MORAL SYSTEMS.My fear is that when people create their own morals, they start to make sin "acceptable"...Abortion, lies, etc...The whole financial system is sin.....when people are left to their own devices, the bible says there will be consequences.I know you won't agree Brian... good to hear from you again. sorry you are still no further along.

At this stage we have reached already, alas, an impass.I can not longer respond because my main purpose was to respond to Phat. Ad hominem allusions about me are not the topic. Also, it seems to be that people can't respond to my actual reasoning, but again question me.it is easy to dish it out - but harder to take it. I will no longer debate people who only question, but cannot answer.

THIS ENDS MY PARTICIPATION IN THIS THREAD. I hope Phat will receive my opinion.

My purpose is to understand through dialectic reasoning, it is not to be provided some absolute 'truth' from 'on high' from someone who does not provide the appropriate credentials to speak for any given deity. If you can't cut it, then all I can say is good luck.Edited by anglagard, : expansion

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Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis BaconThe more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

Well, that would depend on how you present the argument that God is Good! Of course it does, but it does depend on how the argument is presented. If Yahweh is the ultimate benevolent being, then with His omnipotence and omniscience, he is no better then Descartes Evil Genius/Demon. No one said they were stupid, they were very inventive, very good story-tellers. None of the Bible is a problem for ME, it is a problem for YOU though. Nothing at all in the Bible affects my life, I can see the Bible for what it is, it is people, such as yourself, that try to make the collection of texts into something it isn’t. Do you think the ancient Jews had a problem with plagiarising stories form other cultures? Do you think that the Jews did not invent philosophical tales to explain why there’s evil and suffering in the world. Most of all, do you really think Jewish people take the Bible literally? But you cannot take this claim unattached to the rest of the Bible. The story of the Fall is riddled with errors, which, amongst other things, is a wee clue that it is a fairytale. Try reading the Fall of Man through an objective lens for once and you will see how evil God is. Everything passes away if we wait long enough. But the Bible says that God is evil, so I am not contradicting anything.Isaiah 45:5 I form the light, and create darkness;
I make peace, and create evil
I am the Lord,
Who has made all these things. No doubt we will now see the famous cop out: ‘Ah well, when Isaiah says ‘evil’ he does not really mean ‘evil’ he means something else. Why is God not responsible for looking after His children? You do realise that you are simply making God appear more evil than ever? God creates His children, and because God knows everything He knows what will befall these children and He chooses to force the evil upon them, lovely God. No I’m not, you are ignoring what is written in the Bible. That’s why I judge God on the entire Bible, and the conclusion that Yahweh is an evil, disgusting entity is the ONLY logical conclusion one can come to. Well much of the ‘Book’ has been rewritten, that’s a fact. But I am not rewriting anything my conclusions are based on reading the whole collection of texts.Do you really think Satan came into existence on his own, or is an eternal being?Do you think God is capable of obliterating Satan out of existence?

I question your allegiance to Biblical literalism, despite science. Any 'absolute' morality, and your self-proclaimed speaking for any deity. The real question is can you handle it?

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Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis BaconThe more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

That is a very interesting verse, and I will surely study it a bit when I find the time. But I just wanted to say that it didn't really support your claim that 'God is evil', since the verse rather says that God created evil.Now you could argue that it is evil to create evil, which is a rather profound philosophical question: Is God evil by creating evil ?Theologicaly, was he evil to give Adam the option to disobey him, knowing that Bibically, it is evil to disobey God ?Could God give us free-will without creating evil ?Personnally I don't think so, since if you create good, than automatically you create evil (ie the opposite of good).

More likely, I would only see how evil God is portrayed as. God either exists or He doesn't. That much is factual. How humans portray their understanding of God in literary and verbal form is all that the rest of us have to go on as to the character of the Deity, apart from any subjective personal experiences or epiphanies which we may individually have experienced.More on topic, however, is the idea of our responsibility. Has God left us in charge? Has God left us a charge?? (a task or duty imposed?) With all due respect to Mike, (Glad to see you actively participating,Mike. You have said all you are going to say, so sit this one out now and watch the arguments and opinions unfold) I do not listen to someone who tells me what God means for me to do. Since 99.999% of the time I do NOT hear an audible voice, I rely upon my own conscience to make a rational decision as to what it is that I should do in any given case.Am I in danger of error by not consulting scripture?I DO read scripture, and try to understand it in the context with which it was written. I also believe that God has given me a brain and expects me to use it. What differentiates me from an atheistic or agnostic mindset is that I DO pray and meditate upon my actions lining up with Gods will. This obviously means that I do NOT consider God to be evil. Were God evil, anything that humans attempted to do would ultimately fail anyway, so I consider that conclusion illogical.

Personally, I believe that God allowed for the potential for evil to exist and in that way, He created evil. Keep in mind that according to the Gospel of Dante, God never actually created an evil Devil. God merely created a freewilled Lucifer who chose of his own inclination to rise up and personify evil. Truthfully, though my Christianity is very eclectic and is not bound by either historical dogma or absolute belief in Biblical infallibility.I believe that God exists.I believe that God is fully aware of the true Big Picture, so that if He decides to wipe out the Amalikites or the Americites or even the Hypocrites, He does so knowing full well that it is His responsibility of the fate of these souls and that none of us have anything to say about it other than to voice our opinion based on limited knowledge and no foreknowledge.The evidence would show, however, that it is humans who kill other humans. There is no giant hand from the sky on which to place the blame. And thus this steers us back towards the primary topic, which is responsibility.After all, even if we could indict God and force Him into court, who would be the judge?

The thing is Adam, and Eve for that matter, did NOT know it was evil to disobey God because they did NOT know what good and evil was until AFTER they ate the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil! I'd say it is pretty evil to curse someone and their descendants for doing something that they didn't know was wrong. This is quite a glaring error in the Fall myth. That's assuming that we have free will, we could simply be playing out a part that God has already written for us, with our 'choices' already determined. I suppose that to appreciate 'good' we need to know what 'evil' is. But why not just create a world where there is no 'evil', or if there has to be evil let it be kept away from His children like the hedge He put around Job, what loving parent would not want this type of world for their children?

It doesn't have to come to that though.Remember, you are the one that chooses to follow this bloodthirsty tyrant, no one forces you to do this. All the thousands of millions of Xians follow this ancient monster because they choose to, why anyone would choose this ogre is beyond me, Yahweh certainly isn't a god worthy of worship.

For some of us, God is not bound by the definitions in the Bible, however...so the Deity we recreate in our minds and hearts (some say we create rather than recreate and commune) is not a bloodthirsty tyrant. My point is that IMB God is living and active and is not bound by what was written about Him through countless myths.AbE: Truthfully, Brian nobody knows whether God exists or not and you and I could go to the pub and discuss the need for a God or not in human psychosocial development. Surely of all of the students you have met who pursued Theology degrees, some were at least rational and pleasant to be around, no?Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

The vast majority were, but then not all of them were Christians. Seriously, over the years only 2 of my students were unpleasant, one was a Christian and one a Muslim, they were both extremists. The trainee ministers were all very pleasant, I got on very well with them. I don't think any of them knew I am an atheist, at least it never came up in any conversations, but when you are doing a job you have to teach from an unbiased stance. Then we could discuss the need for a tartan monkey on Mars directing human affairs, or ye olde sphagetti monster scenario.But I agree, if everyone was honest we would all be agnostic, but the thing about being agnostic regarding God is that we would have to be agnostic regarding every possible mythological entity, that's if we apply Kant's categorical imperative, and I see no reason why we shouldn't.

I'm not sure if you added this part to have it replied to at all or not. I just want to point out that pretty much everyone has some entire aspect from when they were raised that is laughed at and denigrated by many people. Does this upset you? It really shouldn't. There are lots of people who make fun of stuff just because it's different. The only thing that should upset you is if there is any validity in those jeers. The only way to assess such validity is with an objective view of the Christian mindset you were raised with.It is possible you were raised with a Christian mindset that is very damaging.
It is possible you were raised with a Christian mindset that you should be very proud of.Only an objective analysis of your childhood memories will give you the answer, if you're interested. Yes, of course it does. Anytime you let go of your personal responsibility you are abdicating your personal responsibility. The question is whether or not such a thing is okay. Are you supposed to let go of your responsibilities because God tells you to? Why would God give you responsibilities, and a brain capable of identifying those responsibilities, if He didn't expect you to deal with them? These are questions that are up to you. What do you honestly think a creator-God would want you to do with your intellect? Again, of course it is, there's no doubt about it. The question is whether or not such an abdication is okay. Just be honest with yourself. If you're having company over, and your house is a mess, do you clean it up regardless of where the mess came from? Do you think we should do what we can to improve this world before Jesus comes back? Personally, I don't think Jesus exists at all and that we all have responsibilities to keep this world as tidy as possible just because we're lucky enough to exist here. But even if I did believe in the Bible, I don't see any major messages in there about giving up and letting things go their own way. I don't want unquestioning, obedient servants. Am I better than God? Why would God want something petty and useless?
If the God of the Bible exists, then our mature and rational abilities would be gifts from God. I'd think that God would want us to use the gifts He gave us to be as benevolent as we can. I certainly don't think He'd approve if we ignored such God-given talents.
Again, I don't think God exists. I think we should be mature, rational thinkers for a calling that is higher than any deity you can even imagine... because being mature and rational is the best method we have to increase benevolence throughout this existence. But if a God actually does exist, I still see no reason for blindly following Him. If He's worthy of being followed, He wouldn't want any such thing anyway, because it's worthless. To follow a God "just because He created us" or "just because He's all powerful" is immature, cowardly and absolutely devoid of any respect or honour.Let's say you're a god. I now dub you Phat - Lord of the Ants.
Which ants would you be interested with? Those who used what you gave them to grovel at your feet? Or those who spread your message of peace and love with all the faculties you provided them with? If those ones far away spreading your message began to have doubts, would you rather have them stop spreading the message of peace and love to come back and make sure you were still on the throne? Or would you be interested in those who continued professing peace and love without even caring about your status in the kingdom? What about those who said it didn't even matter if you existed at all, yet continued to spread peace and love wherever they could? And, most of all, what about those ants that aren't even from your colony, never heard about you, and even laughed at the idea of "a giant's" existence?. If those ants began professing the message of peace and love without any input from you whatsoever... would you at all be interested in them? Where would they fall on your "these are some good ants" scale?What's important to you, if you were a god? Your popularity amongst some ants? Seeing the results of your power being swept over the anthills? Watching some ants fight to "defend your honour?" Or the spreading of a message that transcends even your divine powers?Edited by Stile, : I don't now what I was thinking