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Author
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Topic: God: Knowable or not Knowable?
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 90 of 216 (437509)
11-30-2007 11:21 AM
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Reply to: Message 89 by Phat
11-30-2007 11:16 AM
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Re: A few questions.
jar writes: Without using logic, reason and reality, just how do you determine anything? to which Phat replies
quote:
You believe in the Nicene Creed, right?
Gotta say HUH? Let's see where this rabbit hole goes. Um, yes. It is a belief I hold but as I have said many times, I could well be wrong.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 89 by Phat, posted 11-30-2007 11:16 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 96 by Phat, posted 12-02-2007 11:12 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 95 of 216 (437981)
12-02-2007 10:42 AM
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Reply to: Message 94 by Phat
12-02-2007 10:17 AM
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Re: A few questions.
Phat writes: Jar writes: Without using logic, reason and reality, just how do you determine anything? A synonym for determine is to characterize. We don't characterize God through exemplary behavior alone. God provided His character to us when He sent His Son to dwell among us. It is the communion with this mystery and the infusion of the character into us that makes us who we are. Another way to say this would be to say that we don't determine God and whether He exists and how. We are, rather, determined by God. And no, He is not small and petty and evil. (You are stuck on that warlord analogy) He chose everyone. Its our job (opportunity?) to accept the invitation of our determination! Of course absolutely nothing in your post addressed the question that I posed. Is there some reason for that? Regardless, let me try to address what you wrote.
Phat writes: A synonym for determine is to characterize. We don't characterize God through exemplary behavior alone. Correct, we also characterize God by what we say. You create a god when you describe that god.
Phat writes: God provided His character to us when He sent His Son to dwell among us. What does that have to do with how we determine anything or actually anything in this thread?
Phat writes: It is the communion with this mystery and the infusion of the character into us that makes us who we are. Huh? Just how does one commune with a mystery? Exactly what type of relationship does one have with a mystery?
Phat writes: Another way to say this would be to say that we don't determine God and whether He exists and how. We are, rather, determined by God. Yes, you do say that. But what does that mean or have to do with the topic? What steps are taken to determine what exactly god did?
Phat writes: And no, He is not small and petty and evil. (You are stuck on that warlord analogy) He chose everyone. Its our job (opportunity?) to accept the invitation of our determination! I'm sorry, shall we step through the whole thing again or should I just refer you back to one of the MANY times we have discussed it? How evil your god is is really not on topic here.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 94 by Phat, posted 12-02-2007 10:17 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 97 of 216 (437987)
12-02-2007 11:30 AM
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Reply to: Message 96 by Phat
12-02-2007 11:12 AM
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What does ANY of this have to do with the topic?
I wait to see how you will relate any of this to the topic, but simple research should tell you which creeds Episcopalians subscribe to.
Why must Jesus be only human while on Earth? How does having two natures minimize the power of the story? I have gone over that many, many times here at EvC. Since it is unrelated to the topic, either start a thread on it or take it to the GD.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 96 by Phat, posted 12-02-2007 11:12 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Omni [actually] = all
Explain to me how an omnipotent god would be unable to do something. Irrelevant. The question is "How would you be able to know it was God?"
Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Omni [actually] = all
Did you say "The simple answer is that you can't."?
Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Omni [actually] = all
So are you saying that God could make us know but we could not know if it was God making us know?
Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Omni [actually] = all
By default, we couldn't really know that we knew. But if god can do anything then he can make us really know that we know. I don't really know how we would know, though. Please parse your assertion.
Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 144 of 216 (438671)
12-05-2007 5:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 141 by Phat
12-05-2007 4:48 PM
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Re: Becoming a Cat would make Jon less human, but Jon is not omniptent
Through Jesus, we get a glimpse into how God thinks. How?
Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 141 by Phat, posted 12-05-2007 4:48 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Omni [actually] = all
Catholic Scientist writes: jar writes: Catholic Scientist writes: By default, we couldn't really know that we knew. But if god can do anything then he can make us really know that we know. I don't really know how we would know, though. Please parse your assertion.
No thanks. That is kinda typical. I hear that response quite often from other Christians; when they are asked to actually look at their believes, they would rather not.
Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Omni [actually] = all
But the issue is not related to what God can do. The issue is "What can you know?" If you say:
By default, we couldn't really know that we knew. But if god can do anything then he can make us really know that we know.
I don't really know how we would know, though. then God might do something but we can not know that God did it? The whole thread is about whether God is knowable or not knowable. It's about what we can know. So again, how can we know that it is God?
Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 152 of 216 (438786)
12-06-2007 9:43 AM
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Reply to: Message 151 by Phat
12-06-2007 2:55 AM
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Re: meow
Do you know Ben Franklin? Do you know Henry VIII? Do you know Philip I of Castile?
Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 151 by Phat, posted 12-06-2007 2:55 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 163 by Phat, posted 12-06-2007 11:29 AM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Omni [actually] = all
No. We would really know that we knew.
I don't know how, but if God is omnipotent, he certainly has the power to make us able to know.
If we are unable to know, then that god is not omnipotent. How would we know? The Heaven's Gate folk "Knew". The Jonestown folk "Knew". Charles Manson's followers "Knew". How would you know?
Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Knowing
I don't know how. I already said that. Yet in each of the cases I mentioned, the people "Knew".
Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Knowing
Yawn
Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Knowing
No, simply not letting you change the subject or pull a Gish Gallop. The thread is "God: Knowable or not Knowable?" I do not allow folk to palm the pea and swap goal posts.
Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
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