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Author
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Topic: God: Knowable or not Knowable?
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 154 of 216 (438792)
12-06-2007 10:07 AM
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Reply to: Message 148 by Jon
12-05-2007 10:25 PM
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Re: meow
Jon writes: What would I have to do to get my cat to understand?
Make it smarter. How much smarter?
437%
(but seriously, how the hell am I supposed to know?)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 148 by Jon, posted 12-05-2007 10:25 PM | | Jon has not replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 156 of 216 (438799)
12-06-2007 10:30 AM
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Reply to: Message 155 by jar
12-06-2007 10:08 AM
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Re: Omni [actually] = all
How would you know? I don't know how. I already said that.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 155 by jar, posted 12-06-2007 10:08 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 157 by jar, posted 12-06-2007 10:43 AM | | New Cat's Eye has replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 158 of 216 (438804)
12-06-2007 11:01 AM
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Reply to: Message 157 by jar
12-06-2007 10:43 AM
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Re: Knowing
Yet in each of the cases I mentioned, the people "Knew". So? How do you "know" that you're not in The Matrix? Edited by Catholic Scientist, : syntax error
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 157 by jar, posted 12-06-2007 10:43 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 159 by jar, posted 12-06-2007 11:04 AM | | New Cat's Eye has replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 160 of 216 (438806)
12-06-2007 11:10 AM
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Reply to: Message 159 by jar
12-06-2007 11:04 AM
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Re: Knowing
Typical christian not wanting to examine their beliefs.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 159 by jar, posted 12-06-2007 11:04 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 161 by jar, posted 12-06-2007 11:13 AM | | New Cat's Eye has replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 162 of 216 (438814)
12-06-2007 11:28 AM
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Reply to: Message 161 by jar
12-06-2007 11:13 AM
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Re: Knowing
I do not allow folk to palm the pea and swap goal posts. But that is what you are doing.
The thread is "God: Knowable or not Knowable?" My position is very simple. An omnipotent god has the power to be knowable because they have every/all power(s). You're the one changing the subject to how we can know.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 161 by jar, posted 12-06-2007 11:13 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 164 by jar, posted 12-06-2007 11:32 AM | | New Cat's Eye has replied | | | Message 166 by Phat, posted 12-06-2007 12:02 PM | | New Cat's Eye has replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 165 of 216 (438821)
12-06-2007 11:41 AM
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Reply to: Message 164 by jar
12-06-2007 11:32 AM
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Re: Knowing
My position is very simple. An omnipotent god has the power to be knowable because they have every/all power(s).
Yes, you do make that assertion. Yes and it is logically sound. All it requires is that god is omnipotent. But we don't really know if he is or not.
No, to claim that you know something you should be able to explain how you know. But I don't claim to know god and I've admitted that I don't know how we would know god. I'm just saying that it is not impossible if the god is omnipotent. I know that through deductive reasoning.
I provided examples of folk who Knew. Yeah, uselessly.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 164 by jar, posted 12-06-2007 11:32 AM | | jar has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 168 by ringo, posted 12-06-2007 1:04 PM | | New Cat's Eye has replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 167 of 216 (438844)
12-06-2007 12:15 PM
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Reply to: Message 166 by Phat
12-06-2007 12:02 PM
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Re: Knowing
But come to think of it, if God forced know ability on us, wouldn't that negate our free will? It depends on how he goes about it. If he ties you down and makes you know him in a Clockwork ORange fashion, then sure, you'd have a case for lacking freewill. But if you stumbled across him and he revealed himself to you, then I would say that you aren't lacking freewill anymore than it wasn't by freewill that you came to know of EvC. Do you have a choice in what you know from experiencing it? I say no. Are you capable of un-knowing something? I say no, not by freewill at least. Sure you can forget things but that is different. Do you lack the freewill to be able to not know that EvC exists?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 166 by Phat, posted 12-06-2007 12:02 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 169 of 216 (438872)
12-06-2007 1:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 168 by ringo
12-06-2007 1:04 PM
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Re: Knowing
Catholic Scientist writes: All it requires is that god is omnipotent.
All you're doing is showing that "omnipotence" isn't a very useful concept.
What I'm trying to do is show that what is useless is trying to use logic to prove things about god.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 168 by ringo, posted 12-06-2007 1:04 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 170 by ringo, posted 12-06-2007 1:31 PM | | New Cat's Eye has replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 171 of 216 (438892)
12-06-2007 1:48 PM
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Reply to: Message 170 by ringo
12-06-2007 1:31 PM
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Re: Knowing
Then you're wasting everybody's time. This thread is only about logic. This thread is what it the waste of time, being only about logic and trying to prove things about god.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 170 by ringo, posted 12-06-2007 1:31 PM | | ringo has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 174 by Jon, posted 12-12-2007 1:12 AM | | New Cat's Eye has not replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Re: Not Knowable
Stile writes: The reason God is not Knowable is because we cannot tell if we're being deceived or not in some way. This is the same with all relationships. The way we can tell we're not being deceived in some way in our mundane relationships is that our relationship-target also has relationships with others. We can observe how those others are treated and gain insight as to how likely it is that our relationship-target is deceiving everyone they interact with. We cannot do this with God since we have no way of identifying that the same being is communicating with all the others. Therefore there is no basis to identify the personal communication. There isn't even any basis to identify if that personal communication isn't simply our own imagination. Doesn't mean it can't exist. Just that we can't know. Or at least, can't know in any way even close to how well we can know our mundane relationships. If one rejects the revelation God has given to us in His old and new covenants; then yes, one cannot know the God who exists because the god of this world has blinded their eyes (John 12:40, 2 Cor 4:4). When one enters into relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ through the new birth (John 3:3-7, John 6:28-29), then our God is very knowable "in the things He has revealed to us." You didn't even answer to Stile's argument that the reason God is unknowable is that you cannot tell if your being deceived or not. How do you go about determining if the "revealed things" are really from god or if they are tricks of the devil?
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Re: Not Knowable
The things that happen to those who believe and honor Jesus as Lord according to the revelation of God's word as given/recorded in the Bible "ARE REALLY FROM GOD." How do you know that?
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Re: Not Knowable
How do you know that?
I cannot explain it any better than John Well, since John didn't explain it, and you cannot do better than John, it remains unexplained and Stile's argument that God is unknowable stands unrefuted.
I cannot explain it any better than John who walked and talked with Jesus before and after His crucifixion, and also after He ascended into heaven. FYI:
quote:
Most modern experts conclude the author [of the Gospel of John] to be an unknown non-eyewitness. Tradition ascribes the book to John the Evangelist, a disciple of Christ.
source To maintain intellectual honesty, its safer to go with the modern experts rather than tradition.
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Re: Not Knowable
John explained it quite well to those who can hear what God is saying. No, he did not explain how you can know if it really is god or not. Being able to hear what god is saying doesn't have anything to do with explaining how you can know if it is actually god or not.
To those who cannot or are unwilling to hear what God is saying, you remain in your unbelief and the GOD WHO IS is unknowable to you. It still remains unexplained how you can know it really is god. Just saying that you know because you know doesn't explain how you know.
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Re: Not Knowable
For you God remains unknowable because you are unwilling to believe that He exists and that God rewards and manifests Himself those who dilligently seek Him. Me? No. I do believe in god.
You can go round and round in circles if you like by questioning how you can know if the true God is actually manifesting Himself to you, but those who dilligently seek Him and find Him just know because He is true to His word as revealed in the Bible. And since you are unable to distinguish between the devil tricking you into thinking that he is god manifesting himself to you and god himself actually manifesting himself to you, then you cannot really know that it really is god. Claiming that you just know doesn't mean that you do know. Stile's argument is still standing unrefuted.
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Re: Not Knowable
You may believe in god, but you don't believe in the God of the Bible. 1. Fuck you. 2. You don't know what I believe. 3. I could just as rightly claim that you don't believe in the god of the Bible. 4. No True Scotsman fallacy And since you are unable to believe in the God of the Bible, you are unable to distinguish between the devil tricking you anf the God who actually reveals and minifests Himself to those who honor Jesus as Lord. False premise (I do believe in the god of the Bible). But I agree that I am unable to distinguish between the devil tricking me and god actually revealing himself to me, that is my position. But it also applies to you whether you believe it or not. Unless, of course, you can show HOW to distinguish between them. But if you are unable or unwilling, then you will remain wrong and Stile will remain right.
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