Kingdom on Earth (Re: Barack Obama comments)

Brennakimi writes:long list of links with lots more name calling. look, we get it. his dad was an african muslim and his name is in arabic. stfu.

NJ writes: What??? What would lead you to believe something so lofty? Again, does the possibility exist? Yes. But is there any good reason to believe that? The magnitude of this postulate requires a collusion factor up there with the Trade Center conspiracy theories.

The opportunity in this is not accusing him of being a “closet Moslem.” It requires taking him at his word that he has become a Christian ” for that means he is an apostate. There is no dispute among either ancient or modern Moslem scholars that under Islamic law, a murtadd, “one who turns his back on Islam,” an apostate, must be put to death. Irtidad, apostasy, is committing treason against God, and traitors deserve to be killed.Should Obama deny he ever was a Moslem, it will compound the problem in the eyes of Moslems. He was born of a Moslem father, raised by a Moslem stepfather, and received his first education at a Moslem school. That he subsequently went to a Catholic school in Jakarta before living with his mother’s parents back in Honolulu makes no difference. In the eyes of Moslems, he originally was a Moslem. How can he not be in those eyes, with a Koranic first name and his middle name that of the grandson of Mohammed? For him to become a Christian means he is, for them, a murtadd, an apostate.Which provides the perfect opportunity for an enterprising journalist to ask him at a press conference if he is: 1. Afraid of Moslem assassination attempts as punishment for being in Islamic eyes an apostate? 2. Willing to publicly call upon all Moslems around the world to renounce such punishment and declare instead that Moslems are fully free to convert to another religion?The odds are high that he will answer no to the first and yes to the second. As an oily politician, he will try to squirm out of a clear definitive yes with no wiggle room. But it should not be difficult for a smart journalist to get him to agree without reservation that Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which states...Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience, and religion. This right includes freedom to change his religion or belief....applies to MuslimsOnce Obama condemns the Moslem tradition of death for apostasy, then he can be asked:The Koran famously quotes Allah as saying in chapter (sura) 2, verse 256 that there should be ”no compulsion in religion.' Yet numerous sayings of Mohammed known as hadith which form the basis of Islamic Sharia law quote Mohammed as saying ”If a Moslem discards his religion, kill him.' So are you telling Moslems that Allah was right but Mohammed was misquoted, and their Sharia law tradition on apostasy is wrong?You can see how much fun there is to be had with this. Again, the key is taking Obama at his word that he is a Christian and not secretly a Moslem. No accusations necessary. The point is that Moslems view him as first a Moslem, not that he does. If done right with honest, straightforward, and persistent questioning Obama can serve as a quite useful anti-islamofascist tool.

kerusu writes:By the way, if I was raised in a catholic family, taught in a catholic school, but have in my life since renounced catholicism, does that still make me a catholic? By the way you paint Obama, I would still be a catholic. Yet I am not. Does this make sense to you? Or is it only because he was raised as a muslim that you can't see the inanity of what you propose?And I wouldn't expect the islamic fundies to declare his death sentence until he seriously insults Islam.

NemmisisJ writes:Lastly, I don't think Obama has ever been a Muslim. His Kenyan father was allegedly raised as a Muslim, but is as secular as Obama is. Its only been fairly recently that he has been affiliated with a church.

It will not surprise me if Obama becomes the next president of the US despite his lagging position presently.

nator writes:So, why would it be bad to have a Muslim president, Buzsaw? That seems to be what you are implying.
You wouldn't be implying that all Muslims, to a person, are somehow not to be trusted?You don't have a problem, apparently, with all of the demonstrably untrustwothy Christians in high office who have lied, cheated, stolen, and broken the law in countless ways over the years.I don't hear you saying that we need to be suspicious of the Christian upbringing of any potential presidential candidate.You wouldn't be quite that baldly bigoted, would you?

Mohammed writes: Q2.193: And fight with them until there is no persecution, and lreligion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.Q5.51: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.Q9.29: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book (Bible), until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.Q8.12: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.Q8.13: This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Apostle; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Apostle -- then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).Q8.14: This -- taste it, and (know) that for the unbelievers is the chastisement of fire.Q8.15: O you who believe! when you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them.Q8.16: And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day -- unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company -- then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be.

Silent H writes:People break with Catholicism and Judaism all the time right?

Chiroptera writes:My apologies, Buz -- and here I thought you made this one up all by yourself!

Chiroptera writes:Let's see. Someone actually went to the school and noted that it's not a madrassa and not connected to the Wahabbi movement in anyway and not significantly different from any other sectarian (of any faith) or secular school in that country.
Meanwhile, the story that Obama was or is a Muslim can only be traced back to unsubstantiated email and blog campaign with no known provenance.

Chiroptera writes:So the sensible thing to do is...suspect that Obama might impose Sharia law in the U.S.?

Chiroptera writes: You know, Buz, I used to think you were a narrow minded, unreasoning bigot. But now it's clear that actually you are a bona fide lunatic, and this is a lot of fun!

In the book, Mr. Obama briefly addresses his education in Indonesia. "During the five years that we would live with my stepfather in Indonesia, I was sent first to a neighborhood Catholic school and then to a predominantly Muslim school; in both cases, my mother was less concerned with me learning the catechism or puzzling out the meaning of the muezzin's call to evening prayer than she was with whether I was properly learning my multiplication tables."

Jar writes: What would be the problem with a Muslim President?
Even if the goal of Islam is to become the one world religion, how is that a problem?

bren writes:the same problem with a christian president. he might seek to infringe on my rights with his religion. but. no moreso a muslim than a christian, what with christians having a command to take the gospel to the four corners.

SH writes:I think he has demonstrated an understanding of some very specific interpretations of Islam, belonging to a section of muslims, particularly some of the nut jobs engaged in terrorism. He has accurately quoted what some of them have said, and that they said all "real" muslims should believe.

nator writes:So, does this mean that you think that no Muslim can ever be trusted?

Chiroptera writes:And we did have a Catholic in office. During the part of his term that he served, he neither presided over nor tried to implement religious persecution or extermination of segments of the citizenry, and the main violence for which he was responsible, namely the war in Vietnam, was one that was supported and eventually escalated by non-Catholics, and it was especially supported by conservative evangelical Protestant Christians.

Given the anti-Semitism that is sadly so often associated with other leaders and groups that have emphasized black separatism and empowerment (think Louis Farrakhan, Jesse Jackson, and Al Sharpton) perhaps some qualms might be warranted, particularly given some of the actions and statements of the Church's minister.Reverend Jeremiah Wright, Jr. is the long-time Pastor of Obama's church, and Obama has credited him as being an inspiration and guiding light for him. He is a spiritual mentor to Obama and coined the term the "audacity of hope" that Obama has essentially made a theme of his campaign as well as the title of a book. He also has, in the words of the Chicago Tribune, a militant past.Moreover, Pastor Wright has beliefs that might disturb some of Obama's supporters. He is a believer in "liberation theology," which makes the liberation of the oppressed a paramount virtue. The language of liberation all too often veers off into anti-Jewish rants. For example, one of the founders of the movement, Gustavo Gutierrez, has stated that the infidelities of the Jewish people made the Old Covenant [between the Jews and God] invalid." Pastor Wright is also a supporter of Louis Farrakhan, and in 1984 traveled with him to visit Col. Muammar al-Gadaffi, an archenemy of Israel's and America and a firm supporter of terror groups.Wright has also been a severe critic of Israel. In his own words,The Israelis have illegally occupied Palestinian territories for almost 40 years now. It took a divestment campaign to wake the business community up concerning the South Africa issue. Divestment has now hit the table again as a strategy to wake the business community up and to wake Americans up concerning the injustice and the racism under which the Palestinians have lived because of Zionism.