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Author
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Topic: Free will, perfection and limits on god
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Phat
Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 76 of 248 (200250)
04-18-2005 10:24 PM
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Reply to: Message 75 by QBert14000
04-18-2005 10:01 PM
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Re: Does evolution have a goal?
Hey,Qbert! Yes, I wrote that God did create that being. The being has not arrived at perfection yet, however. The being is still evolving to that conclusion. HINT: This being loves his kids. Whereupon you responded:
Qbert writes: You say that God created a being (humans, I assume) that is in the process of ariving at perfection. This seems to imply that evolution has a goal. Why do you think this is? And its funny that you mention evolution. God has declared that many are called yet few are chosen. He basically chooses whosoever chooses Him. This is not the easiest nor the most comfortable path to take. The main difference between this type of advancement and straight-up evolution is that this involves human will as opposed to natural selection. Comments?  This message has been edited by Phatboy, 04-18-2005 07:25 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 75 by QBert14000, posted 04-18-2005 10:01 PM | | QBert14000 has replied |
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QBert14000
Inactive Member
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Message 77 of 248 (200259)
04-18-2005 11:24 PM
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Reply to: Message 76 by Phat
04-18-2005 10:24 PM
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Re: Does evolution have a goal?
Phatboy writes: And its funny that you mention evolution. God has declared that many are called yet few are chosen. He basically chooses whosoever chooses Him. This is not the easiest nor the most comfortable path to take. The main difference between this type of advancement and straight-up evolution is that this involves human will as opposed to natural selection. Comments? I have a comment! So free will is a separate driving force for evolution than is natural selection?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 76 by Phat, posted 04-18-2005 10:24 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 78 of 248 (200260)
04-18-2005 11:39 PM
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Reply to: Message 75 by QBert14000
04-18-2005 10:01 PM
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Re: Does evolution have a goal?
No, evolution does NOT have a goal.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 75 by QBert14000, posted 04-18-2005 10:01 PM | | QBert14000 has replied |
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QBert14000
Inactive Member
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Message 79 of 248 (200271)
04-19-2005 12:38 AM
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Reply to: Message 28 by jar
02-22-2005 11:12 AM
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Re: Looking for a second step.
My spin on this:
I think that perfection is relative, which you both seem to agree on. However, if God created everything according to God's will, then everything is perfect. Whether God is perfect is tricky, as you have said. Does it matter either way? Things are still the way they are regardless.
If God can make mistakes, but also created exactly according to God's will, then whatever came of that creation is what God wanted, and is not flawed in any way, even though God can make mistakes. So, I guess the question may be, did God create exactly according to God's will?
Our view of perfection and mistakes may be different than God's view of perfection and mistakes. Also, definitions by nature get us nowhere because every word is defined in terms of other words.
What do you think?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 28 by jar, posted 02-22-2005 11:12 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 80 by jar, posted 04-19-2005 12:42 AM | | QBert14000 has replied | | | Message 81 by Phat, posted 04-19-2005 8:51 AM | | QBert14000 has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 80 of 248 (200273)
04-19-2005 12:42 AM
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Reply to: Message 79 by QBert14000
04-19-2005 12:38 AM
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Re: Looking for a second step.
I don't understand how you possibly got that idea from anything I wrote?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 79 by QBert14000, posted 04-19-2005 12:38 AM | | QBert14000 has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Re: Looking for a second step.
Qbert writes: I think that perfection is relative, which you both seem to agree on. Relative to whom? However, if God created everything according to God's will, then everything is perfect. God wants us to be perfect. Not by our own effort, but by our own willingness to trust Him. Whether God is perfect is tricky, as you have said. I believe that He is. He is an extreme God! Does it matter either way? Things are still the way they are regardless. If God can make mistakes, but also created exactly according to God's will, then whatever came of that creation is what God wanted, and is not flawed in any way, even though God can make mistakes. So, I guess the question may be, did God create exactly according to God's will? Remember that God never created a fallen Satan. God created a freewill Lucifer who chose to rebel. Similarly, we are urged to pursue a righteous and Holy life in scripture, yet scripture acknowledges that ALL have and DO sin occasionally. Scripture then says that anyone who is a __________will not inherit the kingdom of God! Is this a contradiction?
The Pastor that I am listening to now as I type this says that the key is the individuals willingness to acknowledge the sin and to be willing to pursue God (greatest commandment) as opposed to minimizing the sin and declaring that they are OK and that it is human.
Our view of perfection and mistakes may be different than God's view of perfection and mistakes. Also, definitions by nature get us nowhere because every word is defined in terms of other words. Words are the primary form of communication that we have. That is why we discuss things,eh? This message has been edited by Phatboy, 04-19-2005 05:53 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 79 by QBert14000, posted 04-19-2005 12:38 AM | | QBert14000 has replied |
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QBert14000
Inactive Member
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Message 82 of 248 (200419)
04-19-2005 2:37 PM
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Reply to: Message 78 by jar
04-18-2005 11:39 PM
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Re: Does evolution have a goal?
jar writes: No, evolution does NOT have a goal. So then to what process were you referring when you said "...still evolving to that conclusion," if you don't mind me asking?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 78 by jar, posted 04-18-2005 11:39 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 84 by jar, posted 04-19-2005 3:36 PM | | QBert14000 has replied |
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QBert14000
Inactive Member
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Message 83 of 248 (200428)
04-19-2005 2:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 81 by Phat
04-19-2005 8:51 AM
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Re: Looking for a second step.
Phatboy writes: Relative to whom? Relative to either God or man.
God wants us to be perfect. Not by our own effort, but by our own willingness to trust Him. I don't understand what you are getting at. If God wants us to be perfect, and created us according to this will, then we will be perfect.
Remember that God never created a fallen Satan. God created a freewill Lucifer who chose to rebel. Perhaps this discussion is better in a free will thread? That is something that I am interested in. We could continue here, though, if you would like
Words are the primary form of communication that we have. That is why we discuss things,eh? Right.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 81 by Phat, posted 04-19-2005 8:51 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Does evolution have a goal?
So then to what process were you referring when you said "...still evolving to that conclusion," if you don't mind me asking? I read back over the whole thread and can't find where I said that. It's very possible, being old and senile that either I said it and forgot it or simply couldn't find the post where I said it. So; I can't even begin to answer your question. If you can point out where I said "...still evolving to that conclusion" I'll try to remember what I was mumbling about at that time. But hey, what do you expect from a monkey?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 82 by QBert14000, posted 04-19-2005 2:37 PM | | QBert14000 has replied |
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QBert14000
Inactive Member
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Message 85 of 248 (200459)
04-19-2005 5:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 84 by jar
04-19-2005 3:36 PM
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Re: Does evolution have a goal?
No, that's my fault! I got you confused with Phatboy. Sorry!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 84 by jar, posted 04-19-2005 3:36 PM | | jar has not replied |
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QBert14000
Inactive Member
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Message 86 of 248 (200475)
04-19-2005 5:55 PM
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Reply to: Message 15 by sidelined
02-21-2005 7:42 PM
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Re: A little more patience needed.
Sidelined writes: Given the existence of a god with magic {or the equivalent there of} a near perfect system could,of course,be just as plausible as a perfect system.The question then becomes why a near perfect and not a perfect system choice? If we assume God created exactly according to God's will, isn't that near-perfect system still perfect? Or are you not assuming that?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by sidelined, posted 02-21-2005 7:42 PM | | sidelined has not replied |
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QBert14000
Inactive Member
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Catholic Scientist writes: I don't like the idea of god punishing people. I think you punish yourself. Sinning is seperating yourself from god (not loving him) and I think this will hurt you in the end, post death. Who is doing the post-death hurting?
But I don't think god smites people who don't love because they don't love him. What is sin in your view? Are you talking here about those who don't sin, but still do not love God?
I dunno...I'm more into the New Testament. Those old jewish stories don't make much sence to me. I think it says that god was testing Job though, some sorta bet with the devil or something, I'm not even that familiar with the Old Testament. So, I'd have to say that he doesn't punish those who do. Perhaps you should read the Old Testament. It is the basis for the NT, and God does some serious laying down of the law in it.
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QBert14000
Inactive Member
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Message 88 of 248 (200481)
04-19-2005 6:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 21 by jar
02-21-2005 11:03 PM
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Re: Okay, one down.
jar writes: It is self correcting, problems weeded out, advantages enhanced. I agree with your post, and you probably know all of this, but I'm taking an evolution class and I thought I'd try to apply my learning. What you say seems to imply a right and wrong or good and bad to evolution. Natural selection cannot look to the future, and reacts to what is presently happening (whenever the present is  ). The problems and advantages are not really, they are just forms that didn't work well enough at the time. Sometimes the "problems" are not weeded out, but kept around by certain other forces, such as frequency-dependent evolution. And "well enough" is all that is needed for a species to survive.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 21 by jar, posted 02-21-2005 11:03 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 90 by jar, posted 04-19-2005 6:22 PM | | QBert14000 has replied |
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QBert14000
Inactive Member
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Message 89 of 248 (200489)
04-19-2005 6:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 31 by sidelined
02-22-2005 3:09 PM
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Re: Looking for a second step.
Sidelined writes: In other words god also must be a part of the discovery of what is actually there in order to satisfy the original premise that god should not fool us. There is a difference between God fooling us and us reaching our limits. If you say that we should have no limits to our abilities otherwise God is fooling us, then you are fooling yourself Show me right now that you can make everyone happy all at the same time due to you
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 31 by sidelined, posted 02-22-2005 3:09 PM | | sidelined has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Okay, one down.
What you say seems to imply a right and wrong or good and bad to evolution. If you get that from something I wrote, then I apologize. I certainly don't think there is a right or wrong, good or bad to evolution. Evolution is simply historical. It's a report of what happened. It's not directed, there is no goal.
Natural selection cannot look to the future, and reacts to what is presently happening (whenever the present is). Correct. NS is simply a filter. It has nothing to do with the original critter or source. It doesn't react or produce. It's not an active but passive part of the TOE.
The problems and advantages are not really, they are just forms that didn't work well enough at the time. I'm not sure there really are problems or advatages except in relation to the current filter. Things that pass the filter can be said to have succeeded, those that do not pass the current filter can be said to have failed. Does that make any sense at all?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 88 by QBert14000, posted 04-19-2005 6:12 PM | | QBert14000 has replied |
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