Free will, perfection and limits on god

Okay, sorry, I misunderheard. Let me try to explain how I see that issue.First, GOD having a purpose in Jesus and his life, death, resurrection and message is one issue. I believe there is purpose in that. That does not imply that MAN was GODs goal or that man was created somehow special or for some special purpose. I firmly believe that All Critters are equally important to GOD.But by definition, we exist in a human centric environment, so OUR major concerns are always expressed in such terms. Jesus is a message from GOD to humans. It does not preclude other messages from GOD to humans, or from GOD to other critters.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

jar Then what is the relationship of Jesus to humans that does not intend a purpose by which god is falsified?

Well, first off, Jesus IS GOD. It is an article of Christian belief that Jesus, although he assumed human form for thirty years or so, is still GOD.Jesus was a message to humans, a teacher showing folk how they should live. He was also an assurance from GOD that unless folk really screwed up, they would have everlasting life. Finally, his message is a reminder that your behavior will someday be judged. Since we're human and exist in a human centric culture, it is OUR message.But I don't see how any of that falsifies GOD. Perhaps if you would tell me why you think it might, then we can discuss it?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

jar I do not see how a purpose is evaded {thus falsifying god} when a message is presented that essentially instills a purpose.Also arises the question of the message for extinct species or even human populations of recent history that have been wiped out.

Do you think GOD is only concerned with humans? Wouldn't he be equally concerened for extinct species or even human populations of recent history that have been wiped out? I believe he is.Heaven will be a much less attractive place without doggies and kittens, dodos and dinosaurs.You see, while we, as humans may well see Jesus' message from our limited Human Centric perspective, I doubt that GOD has any such limitations. In fact, I believe it highly probable that most pets will have a far higher probability of salvation than most Christians. LOL We are not the PURPOSE for which GOD created the universe, only one of the many byproducts. The universe is not something created for us even though we can certainly appreciate it in awe and wonder.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

jarOk. Then are you saying that Jesus' message was not one of giving humans purpose but merely information?

Certainly. I don't think there is any special purpose for humans. I think we are all supposed to do what is right as far as we can determine and to use the gifts we have been given as well as we can.There are some questions and issues that remain. For example, IMHO the story of the GOE is one of enlightenment more than the Fall as often averred. The tale of eating of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is an explanation of why humans are required to behave differently than all the other animals. It's a charge, and admonition. It's a message from humans to humans that is meant to direct behavior. It's saying "Look, you know right from wrong. The other animals don't (although since according to the tale all of the critters were vegetarians I find it hard to believe none of the critters ate, at the least, some of the windfalls) and so the standards of expected behavior for you are higher than for the other animals." Are you saying that an Atheist has less purpose than a Christian?Yeah, I know some have actually said that but IMHO that's pretty silly. It would mean that everything that lived before Jesus had no purpose. From a Theological Perspective, that attitude has always been one of the weakest arguments put forward by Creationists. For it to be true, they have to resort to gymnastics such as "Well, they were there to prepare the environment for Humans!".Nonsense. That would prove a GOD who was incapable of creating an environment directly, hardly more than a street hustler.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

jar Well,I would compare my piety with yours but I suffer from purpose envy. Why would god need Jesus to deliver a message like that. Would instilling it in our understanding not suffice?

Often I've felt that if he would just send a telegram...That's a great question.Remember He's dealing with potluck. IMHO He speaks to us in the idiom of the day and the audience. With Jesus He was speaking to a folk, many of them only a short step from hunter gatherers, and the tale of Jesus life, death and resurection I'm sure seemed far more commonplace and believable than looking at it from today's perspective. For example, one of the things we see as most unusual is the crucifixion, yet Jesus was only one of at least three that were crucified that same day in that same city. It's likely there were dozens, perhaps hundreds of crucifixions throughout the Empire that very day.The problem hasn't been with GOD sending messages but rather with humans getting them.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Humans do not behave differently than other animals.We eat, breathe, sleep, and have sex, just like all the rest.

Yes, the signal-to-noise ratio does seem rather high. Seems the transmitter sends a different message depending on the reciever.changed titleThis message has been edited by DHA, 03-12-2005 05:35 AM

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I would like to know what the problem is that prevented god from creating a perfect being with free will.

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The problem is mankind.To create the perfect being, someone has to be the lesser being. Mankind made God the perfect being and mankind the lesser being.As we change so does God.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

purpledawn That is the perfect example of a sentence full of structure lacking meaning.Could you please elaborate this as I am sick with the flu and not running on all cylinders?Thanks.

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Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.

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I would like to know what the problem is that prevented god from creating a perfect being with free will.

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Storytellers and writers created God with words.They presented a perfect or complete God in need of nothing.
They also presented mankind as needing God, therefore man is incomplete or imperfect.If they had God create mankind perfect, then mankind would have no need for God.That is why God cannot create a perfect being with free will.Mankind prevented God from creating a perfect being.
God's abilities are limited by mankind.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

You write: "God did create that being. The being has not arrived at perfection yet, however. The being is still evolving to that conclusion. HINT: This being loves his kids."
--------------------------------You say that God created a being (humans, I assume) that is in the process of ariving at perfection. This seems to imply that evolution has a goal. Why do you think this is?