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Author | Topic: Confusing mice with mousetraps | |||||||||||||||||||||||
tsig Member (Idle past 2939 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
I know you did a lot of work on the posts.
Thanks for the picture of Serpent Mound I grew up not far away from there and we took went on class field trips thered every year. I stand bemused that what I thought was a simple remark has generated so much bandwidth to so little purpose. If you could turn the sarcasm generator down, it would be nice.
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tsig Member (Idle past 2939 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
It is obvious that they are rocks, no, maybe they are just prop rocks, or pixies magiced the camera,ect.
Using the word "obvious" obviously gets you stoned. Besides, when I use a word it means exactly what I mean no more or no less.LOL That's a quote, just can't remeber who, obviously.
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tsig Member (Idle past 2939 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
Obvious or not, we have clearly definied, rigorous procedures to detect these things beyond doubt, that don't rely on subjective human decisions. What similar test or procedure exists to detect design? That's what you're being asked. Sorry crash, but I'm being stoned because I said the Old Man Of The Mountain was not-designed. Since no one has ever claimed it was made by the only designers we know of, humans, and we hve no plans or any record of it being built by humans, I thought it was obvious that it had not been designed. Obvious seems to be a real hot-button issue with the pink one.
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tsig Member (Idle past 2939 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
True, but then you claimed that you could detect non-design based on obviousness. This is the same (il)logic used by the IDers that you criticize in the OP. That sort of thing screams "hypocrisy" when you read it... So now I'm a hypocrite. Got any more stones in that pile? No one has ever claimed it as a work of the only designers we know of, humans, this plus the fact that every time I have seen it refered to it was said to be a natural formation led me to the conclusion that it was obvious that it was not designed.
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tsig Member (Idle past 2939 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
I didn't say that. You should just be careful using the same arguments that you criticize others for using. Yeah you did and just did it again. Once again, do you have any evidence that the natural formation known as The Old Man On the Mountain was designed. If not then from all the evidence I have it is obviously a natural formation, not a designed one.
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tsig Member (Idle past 2939 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
Ice is water that isn't wet. Buddhist monks are used to drinking boiling water (when the tea is just made) and got severely burned when forced to lower elevations by the chinese. these are relative things. the issue is about confusing what is designed by {people\etc} with what is designed by natural action. if you can tell that something is {apparently} designed but cannot determine the process that resulted in the {something} then you cannot state what the process was, whether you want it to be an IDer or a natural process. Ice is not water. It is a different state of matter. I say the Old Man of the Mountain is a natural formation. Any proof to the contrary?
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tsig Member (Idle past 2939 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
Again, you are the one that made the assertion. The best you can say is that everyone who has studied the old man formation has concluded that it is a natural formation. and yes it was the word "obviously" that set you up. now have a good lol eh? {added by edit} ps == forgot to mention people walking on fire... I used the word "obvious" as meaning according with common consent with accepted reality. Fire walking?
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tsig Member (Idle past 2939 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
Anybody can read through the history books and examine the origins of an object as recorded at the time. But you've made a different claim - you claim that you can detect the presence of design absent any record of the history of the object; only via the inherent characteristics of the object. You're being stoned because, in spite of making this claim (in fact, stating that it's so trivial to do so that it's "obvious"), you steadfastly refuse to apply it to any case whatsoever. Why is that, exactly? You've advanced a claim that you can detect design for objects for whom we have no recorded history, such as living things. Why won't you actually attempt to make that detection? I never claimed to detect design I make no assertion of design. I merely said that the formation is a natural formation. What the hell is the problem with agreeing that it is a natural formation?
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tsig Member (Idle past 2939 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
fire walking as in some people get burned and others don't. so is it still obvious that fire burns? and ice is still {H2O}multiple molecules just as liquid water is. Will not reply as this is totally off topic. To recapitulate: topic is IDers confuse the living and the non-living. Mt. Rushmore vs The Old Man of the Mountain came up. I said that we could prove Mt. Rushmore was built by humans, but the OMof the M was not. Pink S. took exeption to my use of the word obvious and the the frog misunderstood and thought I was saying design was obvious. Been a lot of heat, but very little warmth.
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tsig Member (Idle past 2939 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
I did misunderstand. My apologies. Looking back on the thread I don't exactly see why everybody's all up in your face. Thanks Crashfrog. Your avatatr, name and posting style match perfectly.
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tsig Member (Idle past 2939 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
We can't prove that humans did NOT make OMotM. However, we have no proof that humans did and the OMotM could have easily been produced by natural weathering. I think this is what you have been trying to say all along. Earlier I was just saying that humans are capable of making objects that look like they were naturally made so it is impossible to rule out human design. We see the process of weathering in action. We know that this process produces many types of shapes. We see a face in the mountain because we have an in-born ability for face recognition.
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tsig Member (Idle past 2939 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
Yep, totally agree (after my little edit). Humans instinctually see faces where there are no faces. It is hardwired into our brain. More general pattern recognition occurs through hardwiring as well, but through a different part of the brain than face recognition. This is the problem that ID faces, the instinctual basis for pattern recognition.
And this pattern recognition ability is what plays the IDers wrong when they claim to see ID in living creatures. Thanks for the edit. Sometimes I switch from my normal brief mode to Superbrief and someting gets lostin the translation. edited to add Thanks. This message has been edited by DHA, 03-04-2005 17:07 AM
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tsig Member (Idle past 2939 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
If ID is correct could god have designed and created the universe a split second ago with all memories and objects in place as they are? Doesn't the logic of ID permit this? Yes, but that would mean that god is a liar. Your statement is a perfect example of why the idea of a god is self-contradicting.
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tsig Member (Idle past 2939 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
It's not so much that living and non-living things are radically or fundamentally different, but that there are NO established criteria for detection of design that stand up to any scrutiny. What are the similarities beween living and non-living matter? To detect design you need to know something about the designer.
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tsig Member (Idle past 2939 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
BEYOND LOGIC! And when you get beyond logic, what will you do when ILLOGIC turns on you and all the rules LOGIC has raised are down? (quote parapharased from Man for All Seasons)
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