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Author | Topic: Confusing mice with mousetraps | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
tsig Member (Idle past 3232 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
Of course, we know who is responsible for Mount Rushmore, but even someone who had never heard of the monument could recognize it as designed. Which leads to the second claim of the intelligent design argument: the physical marks of design are visible in aspects of biology. This is uncontroversial, too.
Michael Behe NYT article. I’ve read this comment time and again, for it is at the core of ID claims. It is a false analogy. Behe is comparing the living to non-living. I learned in 8th grade health class that life had characteristics that separated it from non-life. Two I remember were that living things took in energy and expelled waste. I think the Mount Rushmore figures have a pretty light diet and while there are wastes at the bottom of the mountain, everyone agrees they're left over from construction. To leap from the fact that we can recognize design at Mount Rushmore, a noticeably inanimate object, to recognizing design in living creatures is a completely false analogy because an analogy implies something to be similar between the things being compared; there is no similarity between a mouse and a mousetrap. So I contend there is a black hole of logic right in the heart of ID.
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tsig Member (Idle past 3232 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
IDists use Mt Rushmore because they know that we can recognize design, and constrast design with things that are not designed. The faces on Mt Rushmore are designed. But the back of Mt Rushmore is not designed, and neither is the nearby Harvey Peak. Actually Mt Rushmore was built. Sure there was a design, we can see the plans, but the way it really got there took workers going on the rock,we can see the photos of the workers, if we push Behe's analogy, where are the photos of the ID workers. LOL {added photos of workers} This message has been edited by DHA, 02-23-2005 03:11 AM
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tsig Member (Idle past 3232 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
Not to be difficult, but what is it about Mt. Rushmore that indicates that it was designed? What is it about Mt. Rushmore that should convince me that there are no natural processes that could have produced those faces? There's the photos of the workers building it, plus the design drawings and we know the name of the designer. Take a trip to Mt. Rushmore and see for yourself. Nowhere else in the world do we see natural processes producing faces of actual historical figures.
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tsig Member (Idle past 3232 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
Humans are also good at seeing patterns and recognizing patterns/design where none exist (ie. Face on Mars, Old Man of Mountain). There's even a name for it. I posted it in the Coffehouse
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tsig Member (Idle past 3232 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
one could argue that the "old man" was just a much older sculpture that had weathered to where all evidence of it's manufacturing was obliterated, and had originally been of an equally compelling historical figure that has since been lost in time. what was the original face of the sphynx before it was recut? You could ague that, but you'd be wrong. What face did you have before you were born.
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tsig Member (Idle past 3232 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
So does this mean that Behe, or other ID advocates, won't need mandatory labeling on food products to indicate the presence of genetically modified ingredients? Seriously, how would Behe, or anyone else, given two tomatoes be able to determine which one was engineered in a lab by man, and which was engineered by God? Behle obviously knows god's mind since he alone can detect the operation of god in the world. Poor god, once had the universe and now reduced to hiding in the bacflag.
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tsig Member (Idle past 3232 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
not uderstood?
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tsig Member (Idle past 3232 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
the question was that if the Old Man in NH had originally been a sculpture several thousand years old and now badly weathered, would you be able to discern that it was designed or not? Yes,we could it would be obvious.
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tsig Member (Idle past 3232 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
not to be too blunt, but how? by the absence of the same information around rushmore? not good enough, it needs evidence that it couldn't have been altered by design. Well, there should be some tool marks. So you want positive evidence that something never happened?
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tsig Member (Idle past 3232 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
Say a person builds a robot that can build other robots. The parts to the robot did not come together on their own, they needed a designer, yet the robots can "reproduce". The two ARE comparable. Once again we see the same fallacy. Robots are not people. Unless the robots can produce their own parts they are not biological units. What is the difference between living and non-living you fail to see?
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tsig Member (Idle past 3232 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
My guess is that the Old Man in the Mountain was indeed a sculpture, it was simply not done in the same refined style as Rushmore or the Sphinx. Instead, the artist decided on a more abstract, rough-hewn, natural design that would not totally disrupt the existing landscape (as Rushmore does). It's sooooo obvious, isn't it? Where's the culture that produced the Old Man? Any evidence that American Indians were into sculpture on a grand scale? Why did all the lines on th face follow natural fault lines with no sign of working?
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tsig Member (Idle past 3232 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
You are the one who said it would be obvious. I'm just asking how. So you are saying that absense of evidence is not evidence of absense? The features were the result of natural weathering. What would be obvious to you?
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tsig Member (Idle past 3232 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
don't you know? :astonished: :LOL: the pre-flood culture! (which also explains the extreme wear and .....) Probably should have read this before the the other post.
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tsig Member (Idle past 3232 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
Quite frankly, I think your claim that you can "obviously" detect "absence of design" is as outrageous as the ID claim that they can "obviously" detect "design". If the difference between a carving, known to be the work of man, and a natural product of weathering isn't obvious to you, I can't help that. Was it the word "obvious" that set you off?
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tsig Member (Idle past 3232 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
It's pretty obvious that the word "obvious" sets alarm bells going off.
Would you say it is obvious that water is wet, or fire is hot, or do yoou challenge these statements because I said they are obvious? Original topic:How IDers confuse living with non-living things. Whether or it is obvious that the Old Man of the Montain was designed or not is not really related.
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