Free will, perfection and limits on god

jarStill with you. Honesty{will not mislead} Logic{according to rules}, Consistency{evidence unchanging}.Let's keep going.

Okay.SO far I haven't mentioned some of the things that are usually brought up in these discussions. I'd like to touch on them quickly simply to explain why they are being neglected.One thing often mentioned is All Powerful. Well, I'm not sure how something like that could ever be tested. However, any being who could create this universe is so much more powerful than man that I guess All Powerful is an apt description.Another one is Loving, but again, we have a hard time describing that when we're just talking about two plain old humans. I have no idea how we'd test that in relation to GOD.Then there's All Knowing, hell, we know so little there's no chance we could even comprehend All Knowing. And don't forget Just. Yup. that one is also often included. But again, we don't know enough to make any decisions about that until we know as much as GOD and I've already admited that is beyond our capability.So, as a Theist I accept certain attributes, but I also undrstand that it will be impossible to test for those attributes.Have I explained enough of my position yet to move back towards the OP?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

jar Keep going.

Okay.Let me quote the OP and we can go from there. I don't believe there is anything that would prevent GOD from creating a perfect being with free will. In fact, within the Christian belief system there is at least one example of exactly that, Jesus.But that's a trite, kinda copout answer. Let's look at the norm instead of the extreme. I believe that GOD created the Universe. I believe that includes the forces, those known and those yet to be discovered, that govern the behavior of the universe. Among those forces are Mutation and Natural Selection.If GOD is, as I suspect, Honest, Logical and Consistent, then we should be able to make certain suppositions based on the evidence of the universe.One supposition is that GOD's intent was to produce a perfect system and not a perfect person. If mankind was a goal, then based on the fact that we find millions of different critters have existed other than man and that 99.many9's% of the history of this earth there weren't even any men, we would have to conclude that GOD was illogical. Since we have already agreed that one of the attibutes of GOD would be that he was logical we must conclude that creating mankind was not a goal.Okay so far?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

jar We must in order to maintain the existence of god though the door can also swing to illogic and the disproving of god as far as the qualities we have imposed upon his nature apply.I am still following your arguement though.

Absolutely. But I don't think it will.Okay. If mankind was not a specific goal but just one of the outcomes, products of the system, there is no reason to expect mankind to be perfect. Instead, if GOD is logical, consistent and honest we should find that mankind is pretty much like all other life forms that resulted from the process, mutation being filtered through Natural Selection.If we did find that there was something completely unique about humans that was so beyond anything we find in other lifeforms, something that we can't possibly explain in relation to the rules we've discovered, then I would have to question whether GOD was consistent, honest or logical.So, while I believe that humans exceed the other species in the extent, intent and scope of their intellect and in empathy, we also see the same characteristics in varying degree in other animals. We find that humans are made of the same building blocks, respond to the same stimuli and face the same limtations as all other critters.Are we still together?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

jar I am still with you on this.

jarStill waiting here in the desert.{Aaron to Moses}"OI! You werekidding about the forty years right?"This message has been edited by sidelined, 01 March 2005 05:23 AM

Sorry, I got hung up in other threads and plain forgot about this. Now I'm gonna have to read back through and try to figure out where I was going.In the meantime here is some infomation on the Creation.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Okay, I think I remember where I was going. Sorry it took so long.Summary of where I think we are, if I'm off track then yell at me.Humans ain't perfect. But if we look at them, do they violate or falsify any of the attributes we have laid down for testing the possible existence of GOD?If they don't then we can move on to the issue of free will.That becomes slightly more complex. IMHO the question is not whether there is free will or everything is predestined, but rather degrees of freedom. We live in a world where we perceive choices. We decide what to eat for breakfast, but the choice is limited to what is available. We decide who to vote for, and there we often even have the possibility of writing in a candidate not on the ballot, but again, such acts will most likely be a futile gesture. We had no choice of where we were born or of a native tongue, but as we grow older we can move or learn another language.So to return to the questions raised in the OP ... I personally believe he did that in Jesus. But we're talking about just old humans I believe. I don't think it says anything about GOD's abilities. I believe I have supported certain attributes of a GOD. I believe if we look at the universe we see honesty, logic and consistency pretty much everywhere. In particular, the system of Mutations filtered by Natural Selection that leads to Evolution and eventually to humans seems to fit nicely.I believe it would be very illogical to suppose that humans were a goal. If that was true then GOD created a world and millions on millions of life forms, allowing them to die off just on the way to creating humans. If someone claims that humans were GOD's purpose, then I would have to say that that GOD was illogical and thus falsified.In addition, if humans possessed some special talent that could not be explained under the laws we know or will someday learn, then I would see a great inconsistency. If, for example, humans were made of different materials, or had a ladder form DNA instead of a helix or were built using something other than DNA, then I would say that was inconsistent and thus GOD was falsified.I see the Young Earth group the same way. A god that would create a world that looked old but was really young would be dishonest and thus falsified. If Stars were close but appeared far away I would say that was dishonest and thus GOD was falsified.So looking at the evidence, humans seem to be pretty much what one would expect from an Honest, Logical and Consistent GOD.Once we get to the level of human beings, they seem to have some degree of free will, but a limited degree. This does not in anyway falsify any of the original attributes. I don't know if that satisfies your original questions but at least it will give you an idea of how one Christian views the situation.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Try to not to love him. Succeeding for 10 seconds will be sufficient, and then you can go right back to loving.The fact that there are other paths does not mean that they are open to you.My sister likes Dr. Phil. I can't stand him. Does the fact that the former path can be taken by others mean that I can choose to take it? Can I choose to enjoy listening to that moron?
Seems that the situation + the person involved (including their previous experiences) --> the reaction.
Change the situation, and the reaction may change.
Change the person, and the reaction may differ.
Give the person some new experiences relating to the situation, and the reaction may change.
However, change nothing, and the reaction stays the same.At no point does it seem that you can get above this process. A given person's reaction will not change unless something else does first.
Looks like straight-up causality.

jarSorry for taking so long to return to this.Let us see here.Concerning the point dealt with here. We have this issue presented as well. My question to you is this. What is the consistency presented by the presence of Jesus that allows for human life forms to exist yet not be a purpose in god's mechanizations?I will tackle the free will issue elsewhere.

Well, humans could be a side-issue; or simply one piece of a larger puzzle.

I'm not sure I understand. Please correct me if I'm wrong.Are you asking "Why is Jesus perfect but all humans not?"

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

jar No.You made the following proposal. I am asking why, if we assert that humans are not a intended consequence of god's work, then how does Jesus enter into the equation without an express purpose?