Free will, perfection and limits on god

Okay. So far so good.The third big thing that would be an attribute of a Perfect GOD IMHO would be consistency. If we found that the evidence we saw was not consistent, that it was arbitrary and changed constantly, then I would say that would definitely falsify the concept.I now we're still wandering in the dark but hopefully still close enough so that we can talk.can you hear me?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Okay.SO far I haven't mentioned some of the things that are usually brought up in these discussions. I'd like to touch on them quickly simply to explain why they are being neglected.One thing often mentioned is All Powerful. Well, I'm not sure how something like that could ever be tested. However, any being who could create this universe is so much more powerful than man that I guess All Powerful is an apt description.Another one is Loving, but again, we have a hard time describing that when we're just talking about two plain old humans. I have no idea how we'd test that in relation to GOD.Then there's All Knowing, hell, we know so little there's no chance we could even comprehend All Knowing. And don't forget Just. Yup. that one is also often included. But again, we don't know enough to make any decisions about that until we know as much as GOD and I've already admited that is beyond our capability.So, as a Theist I accept certain attributes, but I also undrstand that it will be impossible to test for those attributes.Have I explained enough of my position yet to move back towards the OP?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Okay.Let me quote the OP and we can go from there. I don't believe there is anything that would prevent GOD from creating a perfect being with free will. In fact, within the Christian belief system there is at least one example of exactly that, Jesus.But that's a trite, kinda copout answer. Let's look at the norm instead of the extreme. I believe that GOD created the Universe. I believe that includes the forces, those known and those yet to be discovered, that govern the behavior of the universe. Among those forces are Mutation and Natural Selection.If GOD is, as I suspect, Honest, Logical and Consistent, then we should be able to make certain suppositions based on the evidence of the universe.One supposition is that GOD's intent was to produce a perfect system and not a perfect person. If mankind was a goal, then based on the fact that we find millions of different critters have existed other than man and that 99.many9's% of the history of this earth there weren't even any men, we would have to conclude that GOD was illogical. Since we have already agreed that one of the attibutes of GOD would be that he was logical we must conclude that creating mankind was not a goal.Okay so far?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Absolutely. But I don't think it will.Okay. If mankind was not a specific goal but just one of the outcomes, products of the system, there is no reason to expect mankind to be perfect. Instead, if GOD is logical, consistent and honest we should find that mankind is pretty much like all other life forms that resulted from the process, mutation being filtered through Natural Selection.If we did find that there was something completely unique about humans that was so beyond anything we find in other lifeforms, something that we can't possibly explain in relation to the rules we've discovered, then I would have to question whether GOD was consistent, honest or logical.So, while I believe that humans exceed the other species in the extent, intent and scope of their intellect and in empathy, we also see the same characteristics in varying degree in other animals. We find that humans are made of the same building blocks, respond to the same stimuli and face the same limtations as all other critters.Are we still together?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Sorry, I got hung up in other threads and plain forgot about this. Now I'm gonna have to read back through and try to figure out where I was going.In the meantime here is some infomation on the Creation.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Okay, I think I remember where I was going. Sorry it took so long.Summary of where I think we are, if I'm off track then yell at me.Humans ain't perfect. But if we look at them, do they violate or falsify any of the attributes we have laid down for testing the possible existence of GOD?If they don't then we can move on to the issue of free will.That becomes slightly more complex. IMHO the question is not whether there is free will or everything is predestined, but rather degrees of freedom. We live in a world where we perceive choices. We decide what to eat for breakfast, but the choice is limited to what is available. We decide who to vote for, and there we often even have the possibility of writing in a candidate not on the ballot, but again, such acts will most likely be a futile gesture. We had no choice of where we were born or of a native tongue, but as we grow older we can move or learn another language.So to return to the questions raised in the OP ... I personally believe he did that in Jesus. But we're talking about just old humans I believe. I don't think it says anything about GOD's abilities. I believe I have supported certain attributes of a GOD. I believe if we look at the universe we see honesty, logic and consistency pretty much everywhere. In particular, the system of Mutations filtered by Natural Selection that leads to Evolution and eventually to humans seems to fit nicely.I believe it would be very illogical to suppose that humans were a goal. If that was true then GOD created a world and millions on millions of life forms, allowing them to die off just on the way to creating humans. If someone claims that humans were GOD's purpose, then I would have to say that that GOD was illogical and thus falsified.In addition, if humans possessed some special talent that could not be explained under the laws we know or will someday learn, then I would see a great inconsistency. If, for example, humans were made of different materials, or had a ladder form DNA instead of a helix or were built using something other than DNA, then I would say that was inconsistent and thus GOD was falsified.I see the Young Earth group the same way. A god that would create a world that looked old but was really young would be dishonest and thus falsified. If Stars were close but appeared far away I would say that was dishonest and thus GOD was falsified.So looking at the evidence, humans seem to be pretty much what one would expect from an Honest, Logical and Consistent GOD.Once we get to the level of human beings, they seem to have some degree of free will, but a limited degree. This does not in anyway falsify any of the original attributes. I don't know if that satisfies your original questions but at least it will give you an idea of how one Christian views the situation.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I'm not sure I understand. Please correct me if I'm wrong.Are you asking "Why is Jesus perfect but all humans not?"

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Okay, sorry, I misunderheard. Let me try to explain how I see that issue.First, GOD having a purpose in Jesus and his life, death, resurrection and message is one issue. I believe there is purpose in that. That does not imply that MAN was GODs goal or that man was created somehow special or for some special purpose. I firmly believe that All Critters are equally important to GOD.But by definition, we exist in a human centric environment, so OUR major concerns are always expressed in such terms. Jesus is a message from GOD to humans. It does not preclude other messages from GOD to humans, or from GOD to other critters.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well, first off, Jesus IS GOD. It is an article of Christian belief that Jesus, although he assumed human form for thirty years or so, is still GOD.Jesus was a message to humans, a teacher showing folk how they should live. He was also an assurance from GOD that unless folk really screwed up, they would have everlasting life. Finally, his message is a reminder that your behavior will someday be judged. Since we're human and exist in a human centric culture, it is OUR message.But I don't see how any of that falsifies GOD. Perhaps if you would tell me why you think it might, then we can discuss it?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Do you think GOD is only concerned with humans? Wouldn't he be equally concerened for extinct species or even human populations of recent history that have been wiped out? I believe he is.Heaven will be a much less attractive place without doggies and kittens, dodos and dinosaurs.You see, while we, as humans may well see Jesus' message from our limited Human Centric perspective, I doubt that GOD has any such limitations. In fact, I believe it highly probable that most pets will have a far higher probability of salvation than most Christians. LOL We are not the PURPOSE for which GOD created the universe, only one of the many byproducts. The universe is not something created for us even though we can certainly appreciate it in awe and wonder.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Certainly. I don't think there is any special purpose for humans. I think we are all supposed to do what is right as far as we can determine and to use the gifts we have been given as well as we can.There are some questions and issues that remain. For example, IMHO the story of the GOE is one of enlightenment more than the Fall as often averred. The tale of eating of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is an explanation of why humans are required to behave differently than all the other animals. It's a charge, and admonition. It's a message from humans to humans that is meant to direct behavior. It's saying "Look, you know right from wrong. The other animals don't (although since according to the tale all of the critters were vegetarians I find it hard to believe none of the critters ate, at the least, some of the windfalls) and so the standards of expected behavior for you are higher than for the other animals." Are you saying that an Atheist has less purpose than a Christian?Yeah, I know some have actually said that but IMHO that's pretty silly. It would mean that everything that lived before Jesus had no purpose. From a Theological Perspective, that attitude has always been one of the weakest arguments put forward by Creationists. For it to be true, they have to resort to gymnastics such as "Well, they were there to prepare the environment for Humans!".Nonsense. That would prove a GOD who was incapable of creating an environment directly, hardly more than a street hustler.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Often I've felt that if he would just send a telegram...That's a great question.Remember He's dealing with potluck. IMHO He speaks to us in the idiom of the day and the audience. With Jesus He was speaking to a folk, many of them only a short step from hunter gatherers, and the tale of Jesus life, death and resurection I'm sure seemed far more commonplace and believable than looking at it from today's perspective. For example, one of the things we see as most unusual is the crucifixion, yet Jesus was only one of at least three that were crucified that same day in that same city. It's likely there were dozens, perhaps hundreds of crucifixions throughout the Empire that very day.The problem hasn't been with GOD sending messages but rather with humans getting them.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

No, evolution does NOT have a goal.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I don't understand how you possibly got that idea from anything I wrote?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I read back over the whole thread and can't find where I said that. It's very possible, being old and senile that either I said it and forgot it or simply couldn't find the post where I said it. So; I can't even begin to answer your question. If you can point out where I said "...still evolving to that conclusion" I'll try to remember what I was mumbling about at that time.But hey, what do you expect from a monkey?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion