Free will, perfection and limits on god

Does that presuppose that GOD had a goal of creating a perfect being?And does the issue of freewill apply to other animals as well as humans?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Great question. Do you think that a GOD that did something like that would be believable? I don't think it is. But then many seem to disagree. I don't think it is. That's a nice simplistic story but I think it misses much of the story. That would be really silly wouldn't it? Hard to imagine anything much sillier isn't it?AbEI see I missed this one. Oh, it's not your questions. It's just that everyone else seems to be able to put long monologues together. I have trouble when I get over a dozen words or so. Sometimes I fear that my questions simply are not as profound as the subject demands.Now how about those two dumb questions I asked you? This message has been edited by jar, 02-21-2005 14:49 AM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I hate to do this to you but may I get a few more answers.Is it possible that GOD never planned on creating boings, perfect or imperfect but instead planned on creating a near perfect system?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well, the near perfect qualifier was added to account for the limits of our knowldge. In fact, I'd say it was added for my comfort.So, is it possible that GOD created a system, let's call it Evolution, and started it working?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Now you know we've been over that before. Let's save all that for some other time.Since the topic title contains GOD can we, for the sake of this thread assume that GOD does exist?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Let's go back to the OP.You mentioned... Again, I can only speak from my personal beliefs so please bear with me.IMHO GOD created a system. The system included Mutations filtered through a filter of Natural Selection. The system pretty much guaranteed that life, once it started, would continue. The system is as close to perfect as I can imagine. It is self correcting, problems weeded out, advantages enhanced.The beings, humans, are the result (a current result, not the end result) of that system. It is the system that's pretty close to perfect. The importance IMHO should be on the system, and not so much on the critter.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

It is something to explore although I doubt we'll reach a satisfactory conclusion. Afterall, we will be trying to analyze something far beyond ourselves or even our imagination.But as a Theist and Christian, I believe that GOD is perfect. I think one of our biggest problem will be sifting through all the raw data presented to decide what is actually information and what is background noise. If you wish to proceed I'm willing but please, again, understand that I'll by necessity be approaching things from my point of view.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

No fair. You're giving me all the hard parts. Okay, let's begin. As I said earlier, it's unlikely we'll succeed since we are so totally far from the objective that we may not even know enough to ask the right questions. But let's see how far we can get.First, I am assuming here that we are talking about GOD and that as we define attributes we will then test as well as we can those attributes against some agreed upon standard. If I'm wrong, please correct my understanding. There will be some areas I know where we will have problems, I believe you and I have touched on them in other conversations, but let's try to deal with them individually as we go.Based on the above I would say that first attribute of the Perfect GOD would be Honesty. _{Edited to add requisite spalling errers.}This message has been edited by jar, 02-21-2005 23:55 AM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I would say it's closer to the later although I was not speaking in terms of individual relations.Let me try to explain, and perhaps even suggest a test or two.I would imagine that a Perfect GOD whould not leave us records that were designed to mislead us, to fool us. If what I suspect is true, we should be able to look at the universe and find that what we discover is actually what is there. We should not find examples of things that really are not as they seem.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You totally lost me there. What exactly do you mean?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I still don't understand what it is you are saying. Are you saying that we should be able to test GOD as we test the Universe? If so, I'd say no, not posible.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I'm not sure withheld is the best description. GOD is not part of the Universe and so I'm not sure how we could go about discovery. We can possibly infer his existence. And we can possible determine certain things that would certainly falsify the existence of a GOD like I envision. I'm not too worried. TTBOMK you and I have always been able to at the least, determine our individual positions. I don't expect to ever to be able to prove the existence of GOD. What I hope that we can do is develop a reasonable mutual understanding of how what we see in terms of humans and human behavior is possibly consistent with such a GOD.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Love that. It's always so difficult when we come from such diametrically opposing viewpoints. We really do find ourselves fog bound when trying to reach common ground. Perhaps what is needed in such situations is not the classic fog horn but rather the soft voices that fog or snow seem to transmit so well.Please remember I readily agree that it will be impossible or at least extremely unlikely that we will see a difference between a world that comes about through totally normal processes and one created by the GOD I envision.So let's start with me laying out a few of my assumptions.I do believe that this Universe was created by an Honest GOD. If that is true, then I can assume that what we see is true. For example, the old earth really is old, the stars really are a long way away. If we found out that rocks really weren't old, that the stars really weren't a long way away, that fossils were all created at one moment, it would falsify my concept of an honest GOD.This message has been edited by jar, 02-23-2005 20:05 AM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Would it be reasonable to consider that another testable attribute might be that GOD is logical?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Okay,If as I believe GOD created this Universe, then as we discover the rules governing the Universe we should find those rules to be logical. The logic may well be difficult to understand but once understood, there must be a reasonablness to the rule that stands up to logical examination. If we find rules that simply make no sense, that do not stand up to logical analysis then, if we really do understand the rule, it would falsify the existence of GOD.Am I making any sense at all?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion