Free will, perfection and limits on god

Well, the near perfect qualifier was added to account for the limits of our knowldge. In fact, I'd say it was added for my comfort.So, is it possible that GOD created a system, let's call it Evolution, and started it working?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

jar Ah, with magic {or something like it} as a given then I could not argue the assertion of evolution being started in that way.This is however the crux,and,I do understand,the point of faith.That said,however,leaves me with the bad taste of having resolved nothing,since if we allow for magic without a clear reasoning for such,then god need not even be present in the picture as mere magic itself will suffice.It would also be the result of applying Occam's razor to this scenario.One must also wonder on the nature of the god you propose and what leads you to this view. To instigate evolution would require what for your god to accomplish and is the means by which that is done untraceable?

Now you know we've been over that before. Let's save all that for some other time.Since the topic title contains GOD can we, for the sake of this thread assume that GOD does exist?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I don't like the idea of god punishing people. I think you punish yourself. Sinning is seperating yourself from god (not loving him) and I think this will hurt you in the end, post death. But I don't think god smites people who don't love because they don't love him. I dunno...I'm more into the New Testament. Those old jewish stories don't make much sence to me. I think it says that god was testing Job though, some sorta bet with the devil or something, I'm not even that familiar with the Old Testament. So, I'd have to say that he doesn't punish those who do. Nope.
I wasn't trying to imply that either.

jarOk ok for the sake of this thread,god exists. Continue please

Let's go back to the OP.You mentioned... Again, I can only speak from my personal beliefs so please bear with me.IMHO GOD created a system. The system included Mutations filtered through a filter of Natural Selection. The system pretty much guaranteed that life, once it started, would continue. The system is as close to perfect as I can imagine. It is self correcting, problems weeded out, advantages enhanced.The beings, humans, are the result (a current result, not the end result) of that system. It is the system that's pretty close to perfect. The importance IMHO should be on the system, and not so much on the critter.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

jar I can live with that.We could also tackle the issue by trying to establish just what constitutes a perfect being as I am as certain as I can be that it is not possible to do so.It is also the same dispute I personally have with the establishment of an entity such as god whos attributes include perfection.Along with the arguement of no beginning for this god perfection as a given trait seems at best to be a not well thought out assertion.Sorry if I pressed your patience by going off on tangents jar.

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Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.

It is something to explore although I doubt we'll reach a satisfactory conclusion. Afterall, we will be trying to analyze something far beyond ourselves or even our imagination.But as a Theist and Christian, I believe that GOD is perfect. I think one of our biggest problem will be sifting through all the raw data presented to decide what is actually information and what is background noise. If you wish to proceed I'm willing but please, again, understand that I'll by necessity be approaching things from my point of view.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

jarOk.First off just how do we define perfect?What are the attributes of perfection?We should then weigh this against the evidence that presents itself in our studies of the quantum realm and the implications that maybe imposed by the constants of nature as to the limits of just what constitutes definable reality and the relationship to our discussion of god.Please begin if you would with definitions.

No fair. You're giving me all the hard parts. Okay, let's begin. As I said earlier, it's unlikely we'll succeed since we are so totally far from the objective that we may not even know enough to ask the right questions. But let's see how far we can get.First, I am assuming here that we are talking about GOD and that as we define attributes we will then test as well as we can those attributes against some agreed upon standard. If I'm wrong, please correct my understanding. There will be some areas I know where we will have problems, I believe you and I have touched on them in other conversations, but let's try to deal with them individually as we go.Based on the above I would say that first attribute of the Perfect GOD would be Honesty. _{Edited to add requisite spalling errers.}This message has been edited by jar, 02-21-2005 23:55 AM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I like definition #2--the highest degree of excellence. To start with, looks don't count. Attitudes do.
What type o tude do this God be sportin?Seriously, though, it is hard to define. Why not eliminate the traits that are undesireable? The Bible, though full of seeming inconsistencies, has said that God is Love. The Bible also defines love: Are these helpful definitions so far?This message has been edited by Phatboy, 02-22-2005 01:29 AM

jarHonesty.Honest in that there is an incapability of deceit or honest in that there is no deceit in dealing with an indivdual's trust?

I would say it's closer to the later although I was not speaking in terms of individual relations.Let me try to explain, and perhaps even suggest a test or two.I would imagine that a Perfect GOD whould not leave us records that were designed to mislead us, to fool us. If what I suspect is true, we should be able to look at the universe and find that what we discover is actually what is there. We should not find examples of things that really are not as they seem.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

jarI will withhold comment until I get further into your arguement,however the assumption that god will not mislead should include a qualifier for the discovery of god also.

You totally lost me there. What exactly do you mean?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion