|
Author
|
Topic: Free will, perfection and limits on god
|
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5937 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: 08-30-2003
|
|
Message 37 of 248 (187641)
02-23-2005 12:03 AM
|
Reply to: Message 36 by jar
02-22-2005 11:18 PM
|
|
Re: Looking for a second step.
jar
We can possibly infer his existence. And we can possible determine certain things that would certainly falsify the existence of a GOD like I envision. . What I hope that we can do is develop a reasonable mutual understanding of how what we see in terms of humans and human behavior is possibly consistent with such a GOD. Ok. Let us see where this leads.Onward through the fog!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 36 by jar, posted 02-22-2005 11:18 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 38 by jar, posted 02-23-2005 9:03 PM | | sidelined has replied |
|
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5937 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: 08-30-2003
|
|
|
Message 39 of 248 (187950)
02-23-2005 10:38 PM
|
Reply to: Message 38 by jar
02-23-2005 9:03 PM
|
|
Re: Onward through the fog!
Jar Ok God is an honest fellow and the universe is the way we discover it.Carry on. This message has been edited by sidelined, 23 February 2005 20:39 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 38 by jar, posted 02-23-2005 9:03 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 40 by jar, posted 02-23-2005 10:43 PM | | sidelined has replied |
|
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5937 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: 08-30-2003
|
|
|
Message 41 of 248 (188060)
02-24-2005 8:28 AM
|
Reply to: Message 40 by jar
02-23-2005 10:43 PM
|
|
Re: Deeper into the bank.
jar We will assume this for the moment.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 40 by jar, posted 02-23-2005 10:43 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 42 by jar, posted 02-24-2005 11:09 AM | | sidelined has replied |
|
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5937 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: 08-30-2003
|
|
|
Message 44 of 248 (188215)
02-24-2005 5:29 PM
|
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
02-24-2005 11:09 AM
|
|
Re: Still fog bound and wandering.
jar I am still with you on this.Rules that we discover must contain within them a logical progression and not contradict the world we observe in our investigations.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 42 by jar, posted 02-24-2005 11:09 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 45 by jar, posted 02-24-2005 5:37 PM | | sidelined has replied |
|
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5937 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: 08-30-2003
|
|
|
Message 46 of 248 (188230)
02-24-2005 5:54 PM
|
Reply to: Message 45 by jar
02-24-2005 5:37 PM
|
|
Re: Out of the fog but into the mineshaft.
jar Still with you. Honesty{will not mislead} Logic{according to rules}, Consistency{evidence unchanging}.Let's keep going.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 45 by jar, posted 02-24-2005 5:37 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 47 by jar, posted 02-24-2005 6:44 PM | | sidelined has replied |
|
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5937 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: 08-30-2003
|
|
|
Message 48 of 248 (188420)
02-25-2005 8:08 AM
|
Reply to: Message 47 by jar
02-24-2005 6:44 PM
|
|
Re: Out of the fog but into the mineshaft.
jar
Have I explained enough of my position yet to move back towards the OP? Keep going.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 47 by jar, posted 02-24-2005 6:44 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 49 by jar, posted 02-25-2005 9:07 AM | | sidelined has replied |
|
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5937 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: 08-30-2003
|
|
|
Message 50 of 248 (188619)
02-25-2005 11:05 PM
|
Reply to: Message 49 by jar
02-25-2005 9:07 AM
|
|
Re: Still struggling
jar
Since we have already agreed that one of the attibutes of GOD would be that he was logical we must conclude that creating mankind was not a goal. We must in order to maintain the existence of god though the door can also swing to illogic and the disproving of god as far as the qualities we have imposed upon his nature apply. I am still following your arguement though.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 49 by jar, posted 02-25-2005 9:07 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 51 by jar, posted 02-26-2005 12:23 AM | | sidelined has replied |
|
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5937 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: 08-30-2003
|
|
|
Message 52 of 248 (188664)
02-26-2005 7:08 AM
|
Reply to: Message 51 by jar
02-26-2005 12:23 AM
|
|
Re: Sure hope this doesn't take 40 years: LOL
jar
We find that humans are made of the same building blocks, respond to the same stimuli and face the same limtations as all other critters. I am still with you on this.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 51 by jar, posted 02-26-2005 12:23 AM | | jar has not replied |
|
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5937 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: 08-30-2003
|
|
|
Message 53 of 248 (189413)
03-01-2005 7:21 AM
|
Reply to: Message 51 by jar
02-26-2005 12:23 AM
|
|
Re: Sure hope this doesn't take 40 years: LOL
jar Still waiting here in the desert.{Aaron to Moses}"OI! You werekidding about the forty years right?" This message has been edited by sidelined, 01 March 2005 05:23 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 51 by jar, posted 02-26-2005 12:23 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 54 by jar, posted 03-01-2005 7:55 AM | | sidelined has not replied | | | Message 55 by jar, posted 03-01-2005 4:05 PM | | sidelined has replied |
|
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5937 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: 08-30-2003
|
|
|
Message 57 of 248 (191077)
03-11-2005 12:42 PM
|
Reply to: Message 55 by jar
03-01-2005 4:05 PM
|
|
Re: Crossing the River Jordan: Hee Haw.
jar Sorry for taking so long to return to this.Let us see here.Concerning the point dealt with here.
sidelined writes: I would like to know what the problem is that prevented god from creating a perfect being with free will. I personally believe he did that in Jesus. We have this issue presented as well.
I believe it would be very illogical to suppose that humans were a goal. If that was true then GOD created a world and millions on millions of life forms, allowing them to die off just on the way to creating humans. If someone claims that humans were GOD's purpose, then I would have to say that that GOD was illogical and thus falsified My question to you is this. What is the consistency presented by the presence of Jesus that allows for human life forms to exist yet not be a purpose in god's mechanizations? I will tackle the free will issue elsewhere.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 55 by jar, posted 03-01-2005 4:05 PM | | jar has replied |
|
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5937 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: 08-30-2003
|
|
|
Message 60 of 248 (191084)
03-11-2005 1:43 PM
|
Reply to: Message 59 by jar
03-11-2005 1:29 PM
|
|
Re: Crossing the River Jordan: Hee Haw.
jar
Are you asking "Why is Jesus perfect but all humans not?" No.You made the following proposal.
I don't think it says anything about GOD's abilities. I believe I have supported certain attributes of a GOD. I believe if we look at the universe we see honesty, logic and consistency pretty much everywhere. In particular, the system of Mutations filtered by Natural Selection that leads to Evolution and eventually to humans seems to fit nicely. I believe it would be very illogical to suppose that humans were a goal. If that was true then GOD created a world and millions on millions of life forms, allowing them to die off just on the way to creating humans. If someone claims that humans were GOD's purpose, then I would have to say that that GOD was illogical and thus falsified I am asking why, if we assert that humans are not a intended consequence of god's work, then how does Jesus enter into the equation without an express purpose?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 59 by jar, posted 03-11-2005 1:29 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 61 by jar, posted 03-11-2005 2:16 PM | | sidelined has replied |
|
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5937 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: 08-30-2003
|
|
|
Message 62 of 248 (191091)
03-11-2005 2:32 PM
|
Reply to: Message 61 by jar
03-11-2005 2:16 PM
|
|
Re: Crossing the River Jordan: Hee Haw.
jar
First, GOD having a purpose in Jesus and his life, death, resurrection and message is one issue. I believe there is purpose in that. That does not imply that MAN was GODs goal or that man was created somehow special or for some special purpose. I firmly believe that All Critters are equally important to GOD Then what is the relationship of Jesus to humans that does not intend a purpose by which god is falsified?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 61 by jar, posted 03-11-2005 2:16 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 63 by jar, posted 03-11-2005 2:50 PM | | sidelined has replied |
|
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5937 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: 08-30-2003
|
|
|
Message 64 of 248 (191096)
03-11-2005 3:26 PM
|
Reply to: Message 63 by jar
03-11-2005 2:50 PM
|
|
Re: Crossing the River Jordan: Hee Haw.
jar
If someone claims that humans were GOD's purpose, then I would have to say that that GOD was illogical and thus falsified. Jesus was a message to humans, a teacher showing folk how they should live. He was also an assurance from GOD that unless folk really screwed up, they would have everlasting life. I do not see how a purpose is evaded {thus falsifying god} when a message is presented that essentially instills a purpose.Also arises the question of the message for extinct species or even human populations of recent history that have been wiped out.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 63 by jar, posted 03-11-2005 2:50 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 65 by jar, posted 03-11-2005 3:40 PM | | sidelined has replied |
|
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5937 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: 08-30-2003
|
|
|
Message 66 of 248 (191104)
03-11-2005 5:19 PM
|
Reply to: Message 65 by jar
03-11-2005 3:40 PM
|
|
Re: Crossing the River Jordan: Hee Haw.
jar Ok. Then are you saying that Jesus' message was not one of giving humans purpose but merely information?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 65 by jar, posted 03-11-2005 3:40 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 67 by jar, posted 03-11-2005 6:48 PM | | sidelined has replied |
|
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5937 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: 08-30-2003
|
|
|
Message 68 of 248 (191130)
03-11-2005 11:48 PM
|
Reply to: Message 67 by jar
03-11-2005 6:48 PM
|
|
Re: Crossing the River Jordan: Hee Haw.
jar
Are you saying that an Atheist has less purpose than a Christian? Well,I would compare my piety with yours but I suffer from purpose envy. 
It would mean that everything that lived before Jesus had no purpose Why would god need Jesus to deliver a message like that. Would instilling it in our understanding not suffice?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 67 by jar, posted 03-11-2005 6:48 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 69 by jar, posted 03-12-2005 12:46 AM | | sidelined has not replied |
|
™ Version 4.2