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Author | Topic: Jonah and the Whale.. a question. | |||||||||||||||||||||||
xevolutionist Member (Idle past 6953 days) Posts: 189 From: Salem, Oregon, US Joined: |
If Jonah had no free will he would have willingly gone to Nineveh.
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xevolutionist Member (Idle past 6953 days) Posts: 189 From: Salem, Oregon, US Joined: |
Perhaps I don't know what you are trying to say. As I understand solipsism, an individual can not know for sure that anything external is real, and therefore that individual determines his own reality.
When an individual believes that an external power is the ultimate determiner of reality , that would seem to me to be the opposite of solipsism.
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xevolutionist Member (Idle past 6953 days) Posts: 189 From: Salem, Oregon, US Joined: |
The way it seems to be working now is that those in power [the most powerful] determine the laws. Other than the Jews who attempted to follow God's commandments, and had requested that He provide a list so there would be no misunderstandings. But even they either wouldn't follow the guidelines, or added more to take advantage of the weak.
You seem to be looking at God as an evil dictator, while I view Him as a caring father, wanting to teach the toddler not to handle the rattlesnake. Where then would we get our standard of morality if not from an all knowing God? This message has been edited by xevolutionist, 02-15-2005 12:40 AM
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AdminJar Inactive Member |
Where then would we get our standard of morality if not from an all knowing God? NAMBLA would be as morally correct as mother Teresa. This was your second instance of bringing in totally absurd red herrings in this thread alone. Unless you want a time out debate and discuss and quit bringing up totally nonsense irrelevancies. New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4990 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
hi X,
I fail to see how you can come to this conclusion if you have read the Book of Jonah. Jonah's choice was to NOT go to Nineveh, he tried to run away from the mission. Why do you think God had him swallowed by a sea creature? Where was the boat Jonah was on bound for? Cheers. Brian.
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xevolutionist Member (Idle past 6953 days) Posts: 189 From: Salem, Oregon, US Joined: |
I was trying to show extremes of moral views. I am assuming that the examples I chose are the portions you objected to. Am I correct?
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AdminJar Inactive Member |
Not just the examples that you chose but the fact that you cannot possibly support either assertion. Bringing in NAMBLA and Hitler is not only totally off topic but simply assures that the thread will continue to drift.
Please reread the OP and try to move towards the topic and a civil discussion. New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
General discussion of moderation procedures Thread Reopen Requests Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum Other useful links:
Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting
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Admin Director Posts: 13046 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.7 |
I think AdminJar's concerns might have been raised when Hitler was introduced into the thread. Your point seems a good one, and maybe you can tie it into Jonah as a morality tale.
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xevolutionist Member (Idle past 6953 days) Posts: 189 From: Salem, Oregon, US Joined: |
Yes I understand that Jonah did not want the Ninevites warned. God did not subjugate Jonah's will, but His actions.
As God's chosen people, the Israelites were supposed to do God's bidding. It was part of the deal.
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xevolutionist Member (Idle past 6953 days) Posts: 189 From: Salem, Oregon, US Joined: |
Sorry, I know I do get carried away sometimes in my responses. Originally I just wanted to point out that the Bible said it was a great fish and from a believer's point of view that was plausible. Thanks for the wake up.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
I also apologize -- the drift into the relationship between God and morality is partially my fault. I'll leave this off-topic topic.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
As I understand solipsism, an individual can not know for sure that anything external is real, and therefore that individual determines his own reality. You're right about the first part, but the second part doesn't necessarily follow. I don't believe that solpicism necessitates the lack of objective reality, only that we cannot percieve it.
When an individual believes that an external power is the ultimate determiner of reality , that would seem to me to be the opposite of solipsism. Ah, but if that external power can re-arrange reality at his whim, with no restrictions, then there's no way to have reliable knowledge about that reality. Ergo, if an external, arbitrary power is the ultimate determiner of reality, then your knowledge about reality is restricted in the same way it is under solipcism; theism is an inherently solipcist position. Suppose that the entire world had been created last tuesday, and we all have fake memories before that, thanks to God. If you can't tell the difference, how is that not solipcism?
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xevolutionist Member (Idle past 6953 days) Posts: 189 From: Salem, Oregon, US Joined: |
I think I see your point now, and my first thought is that if it is the current reality, what difference does it make to us, especially if we are not aware of the change?
Would that make it any less real, the period of time that it existed?We can choose to act as if the apparent world is real, or we can act otherwise. We can believe that our knowledge is based on reality, or believe that we have no knowledge at all, if you deny the apparent reality of the external physical world. I'm not a big Matrix fan, I only saw the first movie and found it entertaining, but I have found that if I do not eat I get very hungry and weak. I'm not being fed intravenously by some unknown machine. Odd, how having free will seems to be a central point of that movie. At any rate, this seems far off the topic, and I seem to have read that most whales' throats are very small in diameter and they would be unable to swallow a human.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
I think I see your point now, and my first thought is that if it is the current reality, what difference does it make to us, especially if we are not aware of the change? Right, exactly, that's solipcism.
We can believe that our knowledge is based on reality, or believe that we have no knowledge at all, if you deny the apparent reality of the external physical world. Just because we don't know everything doesn't mean we know nothing. We can still come to conclusions that explain what we observe; we can still generate models that predict observations we will make. Solipcism doesn't mean we can't know anything; it just means that the maps we make are not the territory, that knowledge about observations of the universe should not be confused with knowledge about the universe.
I'm not a big Matrix fan, I only saw the first movie and found it entertaining, but I have found that if I do not eat I get very hungry and weak. I'm not being fed intravenously by some unknown machine. Maybe you are, but you're programmed to feel hungry and weak by the machines. What are hunger and weakness if not signals from your body; signals that could be counterfeited? And have you ever actually known, I mean personally known like you grew up with them, anybody who's actually died of starvation? I sure haven't.
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xevolutionist Member (Idle past 6953 days) Posts: 189 From: Salem, Oregon, US Joined: |
Excellent arguments. So then you are saying that solipsism is just an awareness that what you observe is not necessarily reality, as we can not know what others actually perceive, or even if what we observe corresponds to reality?
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