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Author Topic:   Jonah and the Whale.. a question.
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1694 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 46 of 71 (185635)
02-15-2005 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by xevolutionist
02-15-2005 5:01 PM


Re: Reality
So then you are saying that solipsism is just an awareness that what you observe is not necessarily reality, as we can not know what others actually perceive, or even if what we observe corresponds to reality?
Pretty much. I think it's as equally fallacious to suggest that we "define our own reality" as it is to suggest that we can know we're accurately perceiving reality. Both of those positions make the same mistake of overstating what we can know about reality.

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 Message 45 by xevolutionist, posted 02-15-2005 5:01 PM xevolutionist has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 5186 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 47 of 71 (185643)
02-15-2005 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by xevolutionist
02-15-2005 12:56 PM


Re: Human prayers not answered...
Hi,
Yes I understand that Jonah did not want the Ninevites warned. God did not subjugate Jonah's will, but His actions.
Jonah's will was to not go to Nineveh, he even got on a boat bound for Tarshish, how can Jonah's actions be independant from his will?
God conjured up this creature to take Jonah to Nineveh, if you read the mythic language you can see that Jonah describes the belly as a prison, making it impossible for him to go free. Yet another negation of free will.
God was determined that Jonah was going to Nineveh whether he wanted to or not.
Jonah 4:11 should be a clue as to how unhistorical this story is:
But Nineveh has more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left
120,000 people in Nineveh, you are having a laugh.
As God's chosen people, the Israelites were supposed to do God's bidding.
But, throughout their history the Israelites have continually turned their back on God, either individually or collectively, but God always takes them back. These myths however, are to explain why God is so useless.
It was part of the deal.
Which particular deal would that be?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by xevolutionist, posted 02-15-2005 12:56 PM xevolutionist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by xevolutionist, posted 02-15-2005 6:02 PM Brian has replied

  
xevolutionist
Member (Idle past 7150 days)
Posts: 189
From: Salem, Oregon, US
Joined: 01-13-2005


Message 48 of 71 (185661)
02-15-2005 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Brian
02-15-2005 5:34 PM


Re: Human prayers not answered...
His will was that he not go to Nineveh, and his imprisonment in the fish and transportation to Nineveh was a result of God's actions. As an Israelite he should have been bound by God's command. As I said before, if he did not have free will, he wouldn't have made the decision to disobey God.
The deal I was referring to was the covenant between God and the Israelites, as in Leviticus 22:31; "Therefore you shall keep my commandments and perform them." You are correct in that the Israelites were continually turning their backs on God. I sometimes wonder why He made them His chosen people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Brian, posted 02-15-2005 5:34 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Brian, posted 02-15-2005 6:14 PM xevolutionist has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 5186 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 49 of 71 (185664)
02-15-2005 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by xevolutionist
02-15-2005 6:02 PM


Re: Human prayers not answered...
His will was that he not go to Nineveh, and his imprisonment in the fish and transportation to Nineveh was a result of God's actions.
Correct. God ignored Jonah's fre will choice of choosing not to go to Nineveh, and forced Jonah to go. So we agree that Jonah did not choose to go to Nineveh but God forced him to. Thus, Jonah's free will was taken from him.
As an Israelite he should have been bound by God's command.
And as a being with alleged free will, his choice not to go to Nineveh should have been honoured. It was a choice whether an Israelite worshipped Yahweh or not.
As I said before, if he did not have free will, he wouldn't have made the decision to disobey God.
Yes, this was his free will decision, so if his free will decision was to disobey God, then obviously God has ignored Jonah's wishes by forcing him to go to Nineveh!
Where is Jonah's free will when he is trapped inside a sea creature?
I am sure he didn't choose this path, he did not want to go to Nineveh, yet he ended up there against his will.
It is not difficult to grasp.
What is the big deal with not having free will anyway?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by dbrennan, posted 02-15-2005 6:54 PM Brian has replied

  
dbrennan
Inactive Junior Member


Message 50 of 71 (185675)
02-15-2005 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Brian
02-15-2005 6:14 PM


Re: Human prayers not answered...
Free will is just the ability to say yes or no to whomever we want to. God or man. Jonah had a choice inside the whale(not much of one, but he did have one). God did not ignore Jonah's free will choice, he acted on it.
A persons free will choice does not need to be honoured. Cain made a free will choice, should that have been honoured. Adam and Eve made the first free will choice, should even that be honoured.
Jonah did not end up in Ninevah against his free will. He eventually chose to go
Jonah 3:3 "Jonah obeyed the word of the LORD and went to Nineveh."
The big deal about free will is that God created us so he could love us and we love him. Real love is a choice. Not something to be forced on someone. It is our "free will" to love or hate God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Brian, posted 02-15-2005 6:14 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Chiroptera, posted 02-15-2005 7:16 PM dbrennan has replied
 Message 61 by Brian, posted 02-18-2005 2:20 PM dbrennan has replied
 Message 62 by DBlevins, posted 02-18-2005 3:01 PM dbrennan has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 71 (185677)
02-15-2005 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by dbrennan
02-15-2005 6:54 PM


Re: Human prayers not answered...
quote:
Real love is a choice.
Is this true? When did you choose, of your own free will, to love or not love anyone? Can you really point to a stranger on the street and decide that you are going to love that person? Not act like you love that person, not simply respect that person, but actually love that person with all of your heart? Regardless of who she is and what she is really like?
Conversely, take your spouse (let us, for convenience, say your wife until you specify a gender -- which you are under no obligation to do). Can you, right now, if you wanted, choose to not love her? I am not talking about a theoretical possibility that she may do something awful that will destroy your love, I am asking whether you can, right now, really decide that you will no longer love her.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by dbrennan, posted 02-15-2005 6:54 PM dbrennan has replied

Replies to this message:
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dbrennan
Inactive Junior Member


Message 52 of 71 (185689)
02-15-2005 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Chiroptera
02-15-2005 7:16 PM


Re: Human prayers not answered...
That's a strange question. I have to admit, it did get me at first. But I am going to give it a go anyhow.
Love as a feeling is something that is biological and cannot be chosen. Love as an action can be chosen. The continuation of love as a feeling is going to be based on how one has chosen to act on the feeling of love.
For instance. I have feelings for my wife which can be considered as love as in an emotion. But I have chosen to act on those feelings and continue to love her in an action.
But the love for God is a little different. With my wife, i noticed her and began to have feelings for her which I then intrepreted as love. With God I never really knew him before I was saved. But I have chosen to love him and have dedicated myself to him. Which I could choose to end. But my feeling of love for God has greatly increased since my salvation.
Both ways are examples of true love. I was never forced into loving either one but I have dedicated myself to both. I guess that would be a definition of true love. Dedication. Complete dedication.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Coragyps, posted 02-15-2005 10:21 PM dbrennan has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 962 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 53 of 71 (185692)
02-15-2005 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by dbrennan
02-15-2005 9:49 PM


Re: Human prayers not answered...
Howdy, neighbor! Welcome to EvC!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by dbrennan, posted 02-15-2005 9:49 PM dbrennan has replied

Replies to this message:
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dbrennan
Inactive Junior Member


Message 54 of 71 (185696)
02-15-2005 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Coragyps
02-15-2005 10:21 PM


Re: Human prayers not answered...
Thank you, Coragyps. I'm glad to be here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Coragyps, posted 02-15-2005 10:21 PM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by jar, posted 02-15-2005 10:43 PM dbrennan has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 55 of 71 (185701)
02-15-2005 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by dbrennan
02-15-2005 10:33 PM


Re: Human prayers not answered...
Yet another from up North.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by dbrennan, posted 02-15-2005 10:33 PM dbrennan has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 962 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 56 of 71 (185706)
02-15-2005 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by jar
02-15-2005 10:43 PM


Re: Human prayers not answered...
Not to worry, Jar - dbrennan is very likely from south of Interstate 20 if he's in Abilene. So he's probably not one of us nefarious Yankees from 22 miles (!!) north of that line. Hell, I'm even north of Wastella!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by jar, posted 02-15-2005 10:43 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by dbrennan, posted 02-15-2005 11:32 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
dbrennan
Inactive Junior Member


Message 57 of 71 (185714)
02-15-2005 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Coragyps
02-15-2005 10:58 PM


Re: Human prayers not answered...
Actually I am from South Carolina. But the military moved me to Dyess AFB, TX. And I'm right now overseas in South West Asia.
Ah, the joys of military life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Coragyps, posted 02-15-2005 10:58 PM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 02-16-2005 12:10 AM dbrennan has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 58 of 71 (185730)
02-16-2005 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by dbrennan
02-15-2005 11:32 PM


Re: Human prayers not answered...
Upstate or Low Country?
This is of course asked in relation to the whale's journey.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by dbrennan, posted 02-15-2005 11:32 PM dbrennan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by dbrennan, posted 02-16-2005 12:14 AM jar has replied

  
dbrennan
Inactive Junior Member


Message 59 of 71 (185731)
02-16-2005 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by jar
02-16-2005 12:10 AM


Re: Human prayers not answered...
I'm from Greenville originally. You?
We'll get back onto the whale thing at somepoint.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 02-16-2005 12:10 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by jar, posted 02-16-2005 12:34 AM dbrennan has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 60 of 71 (185733)
02-16-2005 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by dbrennan
02-16-2005 12:14 AM


Re: Human prayers not answered...
Know the area well from 76 to Walhalla.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by dbrennan, posted 02-16-2005 12:14 AM dbrennan has not replied

  
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