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Author Topic:   Jonah and the Whale.. a question.
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 21 of 71 (185169)
02-14-2005 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by xevolutionist
02-14-2005 2:50 PM


Re: Human prayers not answered...
If you believe as I do that God created the universe, then it is reasonable to believe that God could alter or create a great fish to accomodate one man.
God can pretty much do whatever he wants, right? Isn't that a kind of solipcism?

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 Message 22 by xevolutionist, posted 02-14-2005 3:00 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 26 of 71 (185183)
02-14-2005 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by xevolutionist
02-14-2005 3:00 PM


Re: God's nature
No, God can only do the things that are consistent with His nature.
If they were inconsistent with his nature, why would he want to do them?
He can not break His word or lie, for instance.
Why would he want to do those things?
What I meant was, God can do anything in the universe he chooses to, right? Regardless of the physical constraints in the universe?
If that's so, how is that not solipcism? How can we know if anything is true about the universe if God can alter things at will?

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 Message 22 by xevolutionist, posted 02-14-2005 3:00 PM xevolutionist has replied

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 Message 32 by xevolutionist, posted 02-15-2005 12:04 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 42 of 71 (185601)
02-15-2005 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by xevolutionist
02-15-2005 12:04 PM


As I understand solipsism, an individual can not know for sure that anything external is real, and therefore that individual determines his own reality.
You're right about the first part, but the second part doesn't necessarily follow. I don't believe that solpicism necessitates the lack of objective reality, only that we cannot percieve it.
When an individual believes that an external power is the ultimate determiner of reality , that would seem to me to be the opposite of solipsism.
Ah, but if that external power can re-arrange reality at his whim, with no restrictions, then there's no way to have reliable knowledge about that reality. Ergo, if an external, arbitrary power is the ultimate determiner of reality, then your knowledge about reality is restricted in the same way it is under solipcism; theism is an inherently solipcist position.
Suppose that the entire world had been created last tuesday, and we all have fake memories before that, thanks to God. If you can't tell the difference, how is that not solipcism?

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 Message 32 by xevolutionist, posted 02-15-2005 12:04 PM xevolutionist has replied

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 44 of 71 (185611)
02-15-2005 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by xevolutionist
02-15-2005 3:56 PM


Re: Reality
I think I see your point now, and my first thought is that if it is the current reality, what difference does it make to us, especially if we are not aware of the change?
Right, exactly, that's solipcism.
We can believe that our knowledge is based on reality, or believe that we have no knowledge at all, if you deny the apparent reality of the external physical world.
Just because we don't know everything doesn't mean we know nothing. We can still come to conclusions that explain what we observe; we can still generate models that predict observations we will make. Solipcism doesn't mean we can't know anything; it just means that the maps we make are not the territory, that knowledge about observations of the universe should not be confused with knowledge about the universe.
I'm not a big Matrix fan, I only saw the first movie and found it entertaining, but I have found that if I do not eat I get very hungry and weak. I'm not being fed intravenously by some unknown machine.
Maybe you are, but you're programmed to feel hungry and weak by the machines. What are hunger and weakness if not signals from your body; signals that could be counterfeited? And have you ever actually known, I mean personally known like you grew up with them, anybody who's actually died of starvation? I sure haven't.

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 Message 45 by xevolutionist, posted 02-15-2005 5:01 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 46 of 71 (185635)
02-15-2005 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by xevolutionist
02-15-2005 5:01 PM


Re: Reality
So then you are saying that solipsism is just an awareness that what you observe is not necessarily reality, as we can not know what others actually perceive, or even if what we observe corresponds to reality?
Pretty much. I think it's as equally fallacious to suggest that we "define our own reality" as it is to suggest that we can know we're accurately perceiving reality. Both of those positions make the same mistake of overstating what we can know about reality.

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