CrashFrog vs. Juhrahnimo: A friendly discussion

That was significant; I meant founders of "THE" faith, namely the one I'm talking about; Christianity. I didn't proofread. Now the question should read differently.

Yes, it was part of rantings that I later deleted, although apparently before you saw it. It was too far out of bounds for this thread.

Sorry, but no. I was merely pointing out that CK is rejecting anyone who doesn't support his view in this. Unless it's a soundbite that he can dig up from somewhere. Imagined? You're tempting me again. Unlike Christ, I fall for it. So here I go; WHICH imagined slights? I was falsely accused and I pointed that out, and it was admitted by RAZD. Done as far as I'm concerned. Maybe you didn't actually read those posts. Yeah, I know. Thanks again for pointing out I'm a sinner. I'm only a sinner saved by Grace. I do have a problem with pride, yes sir, and I'm working on it. I apologize for not measuring up to Truthlover's standards. Crash, Crash, Crash. That's why you lost your faith. Because you looked too much to fallible PEOPLE, and they disapointed you. Instead, you should have looked to Christ; the ONLY man who was and is perfect. But you've already discredited him too, so what's the point?

And that's why you will be "without excuse". Sorry.

Ok, you won't discuss it, fine. At least tell me why you reject "the apologetics"?

Great, great. Great comments, no doubt. But my question remains unanswered. We're talking about Christianity here (we can slice up some of the other religions on different threads). Here, we're talking about disciples who were reported to have seen a man who rose from the grave, supposedly the Son of God. If they stole his body so they could point to an empty grave (their marketing centerpiece), what in the world would be the point in that? They would have to have a purpose? Even if it was just to play a joke on the high priests! WHY would they do such a thing? Ok, forget it since you're avoiding the question anyway. Or maybe let me ask it with a different spin: Why would they be willing to live a lie? For money? Fame? Power? Very, very possible. That certainly COULD have been their motive, yes indeed. But if it WAS their motive, it kind of backfired. They were persecuted, beaten, jailed. Their possessions were taken away, and they were threatened with death. And they died for what they claimed to be true. All for promoting what they KNEW was a lie? This is completely different from brainwashed FOLLOWERS who were, well, BRAINWASHED to believe a lie but just didn't KNOW it was a lie. The FOUNDERS actually KNEW it was a lie (assuming the story about stealing the body was true), yet they stuck to the story. Perhaps they hoped that if they stuck it out, enough people would eventually believe the story and money, fame, and power would follow. Sort of "putting in their time" and sticking to their marketing plan, you might say. But how long should they stick to their story before they realize it's time to shut the doors of "the business"? Let's say, at the VERY least they should have realized that it was time for damage control activities when some of them started getting killed for their faith. How much torture should a person endure before realize the joke is over? True, a captured drug dealer may NEVER talk no matter how much torture he experiences, but he has a good reason (obvious). Captured soldiers may never reveal military secrets despite endless torture, because they love their country and would rather die than betray. We can think of NUMEROUS examples. But what reason did the disiples have? Why would ANYONE endure torture, and even DIE for something that they KNOW for a FACT is a lie? I'm not talking about a maniac who was bent on suicide anyway. I'm talking about a group of guys who saw something saw with their own eyes, and experienced with their own senses and knew was true. To stop the torture and to spare their own lives, they would onle have needed to recant their story. Certainly at least a COUPLE of these guys would have cracked and said, Heck, it's only a lie anyway; I'll just admit it and maybe they'll let me go. Basically the business is bankrupt, so close the doors (we made no money, didn't become famous, didn't become powerful, so what's the point in continuing this little charade?)
But the disciples, or FOUNDERS of Christianity DIED for their faith because they KNEW what they had seen was true. You've heard this from the apologists numerous times, but yet you still reject it. Just like the democrats refuse to accept Bush. Or the repubs refused to accept Clinton. No matter HOW right or wrong either may have been, objectivity was not an obstacle. No matter how true something is, you can STILL refuse to accept it. But you'll still be without excuse at the throne of God.

What? I was TRYING to find out what happened in your life that caused you to drop Christianity and convert (or whatever) to atheism. I thought I pointed that out, and you basically answered it, thank you.
As far as "trying to prove God's existence" I'm STILL trying to figure out how I need to approach it. I TRIED to find out from you what your requirements are to prove God exists. You NEVER answered my question. With all due respect (sorry if this sounds cocky), but you continue to tap dance around the question of "what would God need to do to prove to YOU he exists"?
You wrote in post # 136: Crash, I can imagine all sorts of things that God can do to be active in the world. And so can YOU. But you must be afraid to express your requirements, perhaps because you feel it might be a commitment and you'll have to believe in God if he actually accommodates you. Stop worrying so much; I'm not trying to corner you. Just trying to talk through what you're really expecting, if anything.As if turns out, you started out by saying God need only to "appear". I asked what that would look like to meet your requirements (e.g. showing up in you're living room and saying "I'm God wouldn't suffice; Jimmy Carter could do that). After you apparently realized that was a mistake (I guess), you backpeddled and said he needed to "act" in the world. When I speculated that you "backpeddled" you got upset and I backed down. You tried to state that "appearing" and "acting in the world" were really the same thing, so (being too embarrassed for your sake) I bought off on that and continued to ask for a definition of "act/appear" and how it would LOOK to us, or what God's "operating plan" would look like. Still no answer (instead, I got the post above insisting that you "already had" defined it and that it was my weak imagination that was the problem because I should know myself what God should do to "act" (you perhaps couldn't conceptualize it yourself). So, now we've come full cirle AGAIN, and still don't know what your requirements might be for God's existence to be proven. Yet, you point out that I should have "started by trying to prove God exists" when your posts fully reveal that you would actually accept NOTHING as proof since you wrote in post # 131: Even though you DIDN'T make ANYTHING clear in that regard. And you wrote in post # 108: Followed immediately in the same post with: And now you're going to tell me there's a problem with MY imagination?The problem is not my imagination, or even yours. The problem is beginning to look like (based on your posts) the same one numerous other people have had throughout history. You simply won't believe. You have chosen to go your own way.
In the beginning, God walked and talked with Adam in the garden, and Adam KNEW God was God. Yet, he disobeyed, disrespected, and didn't believe God. And even though God banished them from the garden, God STILL walked and talked with mankind. Cain, sacrificed to God and KNEW God was God. God walked with ("showed up") and SPOKE to Cain (Gen 4:6), but yet Cain rose up and killed his brother Abel. And to beat all, when God met Cain along the way and asked him why he was not with his brother, Cain further disrespected God by lying "I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?" What in the world was that? He KNEW God was God, and God was right there! But yet....?In Egypt, God performed miracles by the hand of Moses, and they called them magician's tricks. Eventually Pharaoh was forced to yield when he saw God "act" in his world, but the effect didn't last long and Pharaoh forgot God's "acts" and he said: Pharaoh and his people had so soon and COMPLETELY forgotten! Pharaoh pursued, and the Israelites SAW God "ACT" before their very eyes, destroying Pharaoh's armies, and: Talk about seeing God "ACT" with their OWN EYES! But what did they do? They STILL rebeled against God. The first good excuse they found was a delay in Moses' return from the mountain and they rejected God and built a golden calf in God's place! Not to mention constant "murmuring" and complaining, and desiring to be back in Egypt when their bellies weren't as full as they liked, or didn't like what was on the limited menu. God's ACTING didn't do ANYTHING for those who simply refused to believe. But Moses believed, and Joshua believed along with many others by seeing the same "acts" of God. It's back to what this thread basically developed into: You simply CHOOSE to believe or reject God based on what YOU WANT. It's NOT that God has failed to act or reveal himself.But people like Joseph, who NEVER saw God appear (he had dreams. Do you have dreams? Doesn't mean God appeared) to him, STILL believed and trusted GOD. Job never saw GOD but believed in him through good times and bad (God spoke to Job from the whirlwind, but that was WAY AFTER Job was proven). Elijah brought fire down from heaven and the people believed and slew the prophets of Baal, while other people chose to hate Elijah. Many other prophets performed miracles over the centuries; some people chose to believe in God, while others reached out to kill God's prophets. Finally, the Son of God came to earth, performing miracles never seen before (by those people at that time at least). And they even killed him because they didn't believe. Then he rose from the dead; some believed, some simply didn't while reaching out to kill those who did believe.Do see what's happening here? We've seen through history that those who believe in God will do so whether God "appears" to them or not. And those who insist on going their own "way" and rejecting God, will do so even if God walks with them in their own Garden. God wants children who love him; so he tends to give us the opportunity to seek him and find him spiritually so we can have an even greater reward (by believing WITHOUT seeing, John 20:29). You and your supporters refuse to believe God's word, but you have no difficulty choosing to believe those (scholars) who try to discredit the Bible; because it suits your desires. Again, God wants children who love him willingly; not people who need proof "shoved down their throats" (I apologize for the expression) before they believe.Crash, I first gave you the benefit of the doubt (in post #1) by saying I thought it was someone else's fault that you turned to atheism. Now I'm convinced otherwise: In actuality, you have no one to blame but yourself.I'm finished with our "friendly discussion". Go ahead and have the last word on this thread; I won't be responding any longer since everything has been hashed and rehashed thoroughly enough. I have all the answers I think I'll get out of you, and it's been enlightening (although sad). I'll continue my occasional lurking on this forum as I have in the past, but it'll take quite a bit to get me to break cover again. I'm not spiritually mature enough to keep up with the excellent job many Creos are doing on this board, so I'll be silent for the foreseeable future. If my behavior or attitude has caused any damage to their testimony, I apologize and ask forgiveness.
Crash, I pray for a nail-pierced hand to reach down to touch and heal you and so many others.