CrashFrog vs. Juhrahnimo: A friendly discussion

I remember Jason Chin and a number of his AKA's. This Juhrahnimo sounds an awful lot like him.lfen

Crash,It's been some decades since I read Lyall Watson's book THE ROMEO ERROR so all this is hazy but as I recall he cites quite a number of cases of people being assumed dead and then reviving and some of them IIRC had been thought to be dead for a period of days. IIRC this "problem" was one of the things leading to the instituting of embalming. Watson is a fascinating author but at times he is not rigorous enough about his sources. This however does however seem possible to me. Before the advent of EEG or ECG it would have been possible for people to have been comatose or in conditions where vital signs were not detectable by the technology of the day.On the other hand, Watson may have been researching popular urban legends of the times and none of that happened. I would like to reread his book. But what do you think of the possibility that Jesus was not dead but so near death everyone assumed he was dead and then once taken down from the cross revived? This was the basis of the book THE PASSOVER PLOT.lfen

Are you then claiming that this is the reason there is no secular record of Jesus? That there was a conspiracy of silence to cover up these events and only decades later with the writing of the gospels was an oral transmission commited to documents? And how is this then to be distinguished from a credulous mythologized legend gaining growing popular support?lfen

People died for Judaism, for Communism, for Islam to name three faiths.
I don't imagine that people willing to die for a faith would be questioning it. People are willing to die for many different causes. It's something people did and still do. Why are you asking me why that would happen?lfen

What purpose(s) do founders of any religion have? What purposes did the founders of Judaism, Islam, Jainism, Zorastarism, Buddhism, Taosim, etc. have?I personally don't know the basis for the Gospels. Earl Doherty THE JESUS PUZZLE argues interestingly for Paul teaching a mythological Christ that was given an earthly existence by the Gospel writers via midrash.My best guess is that there was probably a teacher who experienced awakening and tried to convey it to some followers but his life was cut short perhaps by crucifixion and his teachings were misunderstood and misinterpreted and then when Constantine adopted the sect as the official religion of the Roman empire there was a further revision and rewriting of the faith. A thousand years of cultural indoctrination makes for massive believability as can be exampled by many of the major world religions. Mormonism has had much less than that and yet millions find it quite believable. We are dealing with the psychological nature of human beings.lfen

Juhranimo,To begin with I've not read the entirety of your reply and I'm not sure I will. Not because of content but because it is one very long closely spaced paragraph. If your ideas are important to you why won't you take the small amount of time to express them in a readable format?lfen

Good point, I agree. IIRC most of the founders of religions started out to reform a religion with the result of the religion eventually evolving into a new religion with the old religion also continuing.Buddha was a hindu who found the very harsh denial of the body as not being adequate for the realization he sought. He eased up on the austerities and watched his own mind rather than punish his body. He instituted two major and ultimately unacceptable reforms to orthodox Hinduism. He abolished the caste system and he denied the divine authority of the Vedas.The early history of Christianity is so minimal I don't know what can be said about it with any certainty. My best guess is the Jesus was an awakened reformer like the Buddha at a time when as you noted there was a lot of discontent and alternatives being examined. Unlike the Buddha who had decades to teach, an early death meant few if any grasped what Jesus was teaching or received what in Buddhism is called transmission, a student attaining the consciousness of the master. My take on Constantine and even such people as Paul and Augustine is that they couldn't really understand the teachings of Jesus and developed an orthodox religion with features of Judaism and of the mystery religions of that time and place that made sense to them and imposed it in the name of Jesus. But I've only ambiguous hints that that may be the case. So I won't claim that that is what happened only that it is one possiblity.lfen

Which God? Which of the books claiming to be the word of God? You believe what the authorities of the Christian church claim, other true believers follow different organizations such as Judaism, Mormonism, Islam, etc. At one time Communism attracted many true believers. My indictment of your approach to religion is you swallow propaganda unthinkingly and then filled with emotion regurgitate it.Those are stories about Adam, Cain, etc. and are being used to persuade people to accept certain beliefs. These are ideas of what people should and shouldn't do. The problem is the old religious authority tradition of the priests: "Do as we say or you will go to hell. If you follow our laws you will go to Heaven". It's a power trip . You have found a sense of security in your religion, and Jews, Mormons, Muslims, Hindus, etc. are using the same psychological mechanisms of belief. Atheism is a more advanced belief system and so is a threat to your security of your more primitive beliefs so you label atheists in prejorative terms. There is no blame in honestly thought out beliefs. And proof is not a practise of "shoving things down people's throats". Proof is the outcome of reasoning from evidence. I won't say Christianity was shoved down my throat as a child but it was given to me as if it was factually true. When I reached the age of reason and began to think for myself I discovered that religion claimed many things that were not scientifically, historically, or logically supported. I've no problem with believing in God, loving God, the universe, sentient beings and acting with compassion. I have a problem with being required to be a true believer and holding to way outdated nonsense and social belief or else I will be punished if I don't go along with you, or Jerry Falwell, or some other raving true believer. You don't have a monopoly on truth, and certainly not on reason.lfenedit: changed sentience to sentientThis message has been edited by lfen, 01-21-2005 14:26 AM