CrashFrog vs. Juhrahnimo: A friendly discussion

The majority only rules in elections, etc. And not always; ask Al Gore about that. You can also check with Elijah (not currently available) who was outnumbered by the majority, 400 to 1. Ok, so let's say you're hired as God's publicist. You tell God that he's not being accepted because he's acting like he doesn't exist. What would your recommendations be? What would your operating plan look like (for improving his image maybe)?Perhaps look at Charles Knight's post # 67 above where he says: Would that be sufficient? I'm not saying I could arrange this or anything, but let's just talk this through a little.

Not everything can be replicated. Ancient evidence (like fossil bones) can only be examined and interpreted. But that's not part of this thread. Please direct your post to the right thread and I may join.

Sorry, wasn't ignoring this post. There's been a flurry of posts that I've been answering lately.
Anyway, I ref this point in post 102 above. You can respond to it (namely the "operating plan" or whatever you want call it). Let's say you're also hired at God publicist. What would you have God do to prove his existence to the world? What would your proposed operating plan look like?

Well, that would be something we could write on a flipchart during a staff brainstorming session. But explain to me what that would look like? We need an operating plan. For example, does God appear to everyone at the same time, like say, noon tomorrow? Some people will be age 5, others will be age 45 or 65 or 85. Next year at this time, the 5 year old probably won't remember the occurrence, or at least it will seem like maybe an old dream (would 5 year olds get a "refresher-appearance" at a later date?) And what about 10 years from now? The babies born this weekend will not experience the event scheduled for noon tomorrow, so they will need to depend on written records from those who did. Or should God perhaps appear once per year to the world? Or once per day? And remember to build a factor into your operating plan that doesn't wake anybody out of their sleep since there are a couple dozen time zones in the world (I mean, people do need their sleep, ya know).And, should God appear as a sign in the sky? Or on TV? Or should God perhaps just schedule a time to meet with each individual person once in their lifetime and say "I'm God"? And at what age should that occur? Age 5 or 65? Or 45? Or what? I'm just trying to help with ideas. I'm wide open.

I disagree completely. Rather it is based on the INTERPRETATION of physical evidence that exists today. But that belongs in an entirely different thread.You're asking some very intelligent questions, no doubt. Since you already discount any eyewitness reports, I can't help you further on that. But to your: The reasons are obvious. That same reason why Bill Clinton has no mention of his "oval office extra-marital sexual activities" in his presidential library. The Jesus story would have been an embarrassment to the Romans, as well as the pharisees, Jewish leaders, and even the political leaders including Pilate. It was something much easier to ignore than address. Yes... the big "IF". If some other people would have written down what happened, then I would believe (I predict you would still discredit the writings as forgeries or plain B.S.). Or, if God would show himself to me, I would believe. Or, "If Jesus would come down from the cross" they would have believed back then. I doubt it. Jesus performed many miracles, healed the sick, cleansed the lepers, the blind saw, the lame walked, fed thousands with a handful of food, even the dead were raised. And they still didn't believe because they chose not to. Even the highly esteemed Pharisees saw the miracles of Jesus, and they refused to believe.But let's not go back and forth on those items. Instead, respond to this:
We have reliable records of the early Christians being persecuted and killed. WHY do you think they were persecuted and killed? And what do you think the CHRISTIANS thought when they were giving up their lives as they were being slaughtered? Where did their belief come from?

Crash, you're basically saying that there is nothing that would convince you. If God would appear before you and do some miracles, you would call them magician's tricks. Or maybe the exploitation of some new technology. Or maybe someone spiked your coffee with some kind of halucinogen.
Ok, let's try your game; Say God appeared before you, but you doubted him. You test him by having him create a tiger out of thin air right in your living room. Would you believe him then? Ok, so give him another test then, like creating an instant earthquake, which he immediately does causing house to shake, the walls to crack and chunks of ceiling falling on you. Would you believe? Don't waste a post answering that, I'll just assume you still have a doubt and that the earthquake could have been a coincidence or "he" just had your house wired with explosives that he detonated via remote control. So test him again by having him launch you into outer space (no spacesuit or spaceship, just as you are) and take you to the planets and let you walk around for a while. Then take you on a hyper-speed trip to far-reaching galaxies and explain the secrets of the universe to you. Would you believe then? I doubt it. You would probably accuse him of having spiked your drink with something. Or what WOULD you believe without a doubt? You're saying you don't believe that God exists because he hasn't shown himself (your words: "acts like he doesn't exist"), but then you make the quote shown above. I don't understand what God would need to do to "act" like he DOES exist?

WHAT doesn't match? What non-matching documentation are you talking about in regard to Jesus?

Revamping? Perhaps the account was simply true? Could that be a possibility? And the feeding of masses; could it be that the disciples simply witnessed this event? Could that be? If an investigator approaches a story with your kind of attitude, he'll find all kinds of reasons to discredit the story. Countless people have been jailed or executed due to this approach. When you use the terms "myth-maker" and "legend" in ref. to a story, how will else will you view that story? You've already made up your mind before you start.

NOOOOO!!! Please don't leave me!!!! I'm outnumbered!!! If I don't make it, I'll need you to send the remains to my wife!

Maybe now we're getting somewhere: Define "Act". Again, define "act". And if God did ACT in the way you'll soon describe, how will you truly know that is was indeed God "acting"?Plz note that you've backed off what you said in msg # 108: Which was a direct reference to Charlesknight's requirement of God in post # 105: If you've backed off that, fine. No problem; I'm just trying to make sure I'm getting this right. "Appearing" is no longer a requirement, just "acting" (for which I'm hoping to get a definition shortly).

We don't know how much documentation there was before the Gospels were written. We do know that the Christians were arrested, jailed, even killed shortly after Jesus went to prepare a place for us.
Why would that happen? Why would people be willing to die for a faith that was "questionable" (as you might say)?

Well, rightly stated. Charlesknight also pointed out in msg # 125: Again, very true. Many of these people had been brainwashed into believing a lie, or just chose to believe because it was a match for what they wanted. Usually it's a matter of the "power of sensational knowledge", but that's for another thread.
But I'm not talking about brainwashed people. I'm talking about the FOUNDERS of a faith. The people who saw and heard things as they happened, like the sick being healed, the lame walking, the dead coming to life, lepers cleansed, the blind seeing, etc. The crown jewel of course, being the Son of God rising from the grave.
Are you saying these "founders" went around brainwashing people to believe something that wasn't true? Sadly, many con-artists have promoted religion and used it (and continue to use it) for financial gain; cheating people out of their money (sadly, in the name of God).But the question I'm asking is: What purpose do you think these "founders" of Christianity had for promoting this supposed "lie" of Jesus rising from the grave? I'm guessing you think the disicples perhaps stole the body out of the grave, as the "elders" of the synagogue told the soldiers to report? Matt. 28:13 ?

See post # 127 plz.

So you won't listen to anything I have to say, right? You discredit me because you don't think I'm "spiritually mature enough", but have you heard of ANYONE who MIGHT be mature enough to suit your requirements? You have discredited modern apologists (indirectly) since you state the writings they use are no good (or "inane" (which may indicate your own level of maturity). You've discredited the disiples and their writings, as well as God himself. So don't make it sound like I'm the one lacking in spiritual maturity; it's clear by your comments that you wouldn't recognize spiritual maturity if it had legs and jumped in your face. You simply don't want to believe in God's message, and you'll use any excuse. You quoted Lee Strobel, but apparently didn't take his book as a whole; you cherry picked it for a sound bite that you could use to your advantage (see "liberal journalist reporting methods"). Lee Strobel was a full blown atheist who set out to discredit the writers of the gospels (as well as Christianity itself), but after examin (ing all the evidence he became a believer. Strange that you don't mention that. Lee Strobel understands how to investigate something and get the truth. He understands that eyewitnesses sometimes remember different details even though they were standing right next to each other when they witnessed the event (I've experience this myself directly and indirectly). There are very identifiable reasons why this happens; needless to say, the prosecution will use the information to their advantage while the defense will try to discredit the witnesses. Or vice versa. What we DO know is that SOMETHING HAPPENED, regardless of what the defense/prosecution might insinuate. (Was is one donkey or two? Your honor, they MUST be lying about the WHOLE STORY!!!)But speaking of not getting your story straight, you might want to talk to Crashfrog ahead of time to decide what you two will use to discredit the gospels. Crash stated that these four writers "copied" off each other and "plagarized". If they copied, don't you think they would have been careful to not contradict each other on the details? Might want to read ALL of what Lee Strobel writes rather than just cherry picking for sound bites.(deleted ranting)This message has been edited by Juhrahnimo, 01-20-2005 11:26 AM

Let's mess the two together: "Appear" and "act" are the same thing then (in your book).So, define what "act" is and what you would expect to experience if God "acted".