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Author Topic:   CrashFrog vs. Juhrahnimo: A friendly discussion
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 77 of 164 (178510)
01-19-2005 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Juhrahnimo
01-18-2005 9:36 PM


To Believe or Not to Believe
quote:
George Washington crossed the Delaware and made history. YOU cannot know that for a fact, simply because it's not possible for you (or me) in particular. But there are written eye-witness accounts that it happened. You can choose to believe it or not.
It amazes me that you don't see the difference in believing or not believing that Washington crossed the Delaware and believing or not believing in what Christianity is asking all mankind to believe and follow.
If I choose not to believe that Washington crossed the Delaware, nobody cares. I probably would have failed my history class in school, but on a daily basis, nobody cares whether I believe it or not.
I won't lose my job because I don't believe that Washington crossed the Delaware or that Roosevelt lead a group called the "Rough Riders". Even if I don't believe that Luther nailed gripes on a door, my job would not be in jeopardy. Most people don't know this information themselves. Hey, some people don't believe we landed on the moon.
No one will be sending me junk mail requesting that I donate money to help them in their mission to convince people all over the world that these accounts are actually true and that they need to believe.
No one will be pressuring me into weekly gatherings to discuss why these accounts are true and how to convince others they need to believe in these accounts.
BTW, do you believe that George Washington threw a silver dollar across the Potomac? (Yes I really want an answer to this question.)
If I choose not to believe the magical portions of the Bible, but choose to understand the reality that inspired the authors, that should be my choice. Unfortunately Christianity (as a whole) doesn't accept that choice.
If my culture has a different religion and I do not wish to accept the Christian theology, that should be my choice, but again Christianity does not truly accept the individual's choice.
Christianizing the Natives in the New World set them up for slaughter. Which is ironic since they were slaughtered by many who were considered Christians.
All Natives were eventually forbidden to speak their language or perform any of their ceremonies that Christianity deemed unholy.
When were people tortured and forced to believe in historical trivia?

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Juhrahnimo, posted 01-18-2005 9:36 PM Juhrahnimo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Juhrahnimo, posted 01-19-2005 12:45 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 109 of 164 (178687)
01-19-2005 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Juhrahnimo
01-19-2005 12:45 PM


Re: To Believe or Not to Believe
BTW, do you believe that George Washington threw a silver dollar across the Potomac?
quote:
I know where you're going with that; "WHO CARES" is the answer you would give, right?
No you don't know where I'm going with this.
As a young man George Washington threw a stone across the Rappahannock River. I found this information over 25 years ago while I was doing research for a short blurb on Washington for the base newspaper. (Quantico Sentry Feb 1979) I did a search on the web and found this Classroom Journal on the same subject. They included the reason the story is different today, which I did not include in my story.
One early writer took license with that story and said it was a dollar that Washington threw, and he said it was the Potomac, not the Rappahannock.
I know this revelation is not earth shattering, but hopefully it will help you understand why people don't always choose to believe what someone else has written.
We have two pieces of information. We have no way of knowing which is true or if either one is true.
Same with the Bible. We have what the Bible says and we have what history or other pieces of documentation say. When these don't match, the average person has no way to check the information.
quote:
Even though we weren't there to see it, we can still believe based on eyewitness accounts or other evidence.
The impression I get from you is that if people don't believe, then they have chosen to reject true information, not that they have found the accounts or evidence to be untrue and have rejected false information.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Juhrahnimo, posted 01-19-2005 12:45 PM Juhrahnimo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Juhrahnimo, posted 01-20-2005 12:46 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 126 of 164 (178891)
01-20-2005 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Juhrahnimo
01-20-2005 12:46 AM


Mismatch
quote:
What non-matching documentation are you talking about in regard to Jesus?
Luke is the most obvious one.
I’m sure you already know these and I don’t want to argue these.
Statement by Craig L. Blomberg, PH.D. in the book The Case For Christ by Lee Strobel
It’s Important to acknowledge that strictly speaking, the gospels are anonymous.
By tradition the author of the Matthew Gospel is supposedly Matthew the tax collector, one of the disciples, one of the twelve. So we check the evidence.
1. The Book of Matthew is not written from an eyewitness point of view.
Matthew 9:9
As Jesus went on from there, He saw a man called Matthew , sitting in the tax collector's booth; and He said to him, "Follow Me!" And he got up and followed Him.
Per The Popular and Critical Bible Encyclopaedia and Scriptural Dictionary of 1902; The most ancient testimony about the Gospel of Matthew is by Papias (75AD?-163AD?), who was supposedly a disciple of John. His testimony is that Matthew wrote down the sayings of Christ in Hebrew.
Quite obviously the Book of Matthew that we have today is more than just sayings.
Testimony of Jerome (340AD-420AD), who translated the Bible into Latin also from the Bible Encyclopaedia above:
Jerome in his Catalogue of Illustrious Men, reports that the Hebrew Gospel of St. Matthew was preserved in the library at Caesarea, and that he took a copy of it. In his commentary on Matthew XII:13, he says that he translated this Hebrew gospel into Greek. In the same passage, and in his book Contra Pelagianos, Jermone states that this Hebrew copy was considered ‘by most people’ to be the original test of St. Matthew.
Not really a concrete testimony and considerably late.
Jerome also asserts that in the Bible there is no material error due to the ignorance or the heedlessness of the sacred writer, but he adds: "It is usual for the sacred historian to conform himself to the generally accepted opinion of the masses in his time"
Here we have testimony that sacred historians are influenced by culture of the time.
2. Luke supposedly drew up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses...Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning
So we compare Matthew (eyewitness) to Luke (investigator)
M — Birth Bethlehem - Magi visit house - Move to Egypt — Avoided Judea and moved to Nazareth instead.
L — Left Nazareth — Census Bethlehem — Birth Bethlehem Manger — Shepherds no Magi — Returned to Nazareth, no tour of Egypt.
The Nativity stories don’t compliment each other as they should. So now we have to look at secular information and the census part of the story doesn’t mesh with history.
We also have historical information on a Jesus ben Pantera which does match some of the basics of the Jesus story.
The funniest story in Matthew is the one about the donkeys. If it happened the way Matthew describes, I'm sure it was memorable.
Matthew 21:7
They brought the donkey and the colt, placed their cloaks on them, and Jesus sat on them.
A little hard to sit astride two animals. Luke in his investigation came up with Jesus riding only one animal.
That is just a little information that leads one to question whether the author of Matthew was actually an eyewitness.
Even though I answered this question, I do not want to follow this line of discussion with you.
I've already read all the inane apologetics and from reading your posts, I don't feel that you possess the spiritual maturity necessary to discuss this type of topic seriously.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Juhrahnimo, posted 01-20-2005 12:46 AM Juhrahnimo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Juhrahnimo, posted 01-20-2005 11:08 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 150 of 164 (178976)
01-20-2005 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Juhrahnimo
01-20-2005 11:08 AM


Re: Mismatch
From your Message 81
quote:
I was saying that we can CHOOSE to believe or CHOOSE to reject evidence or testimony....Even though we weren't there to see it, we can still believe based on eyewitness accounts or other evidence.
As I stated in Message 109
The impression I get from you is that if people don't believe, then they have chosen to reject true information, not that they have found the accounts or evidence to be untrue and have rejected false information.
Your response has proven my point. I shared with you why I feel the author of the Book of Matthew probably was not an eyewitness to the ministry of Jesus. I showed you just a few items that are troublesome and the information I found concerning those items.
My conclusion was that these few items lead me to question whether the author of Matthew was actually an eyewitness.
Read the extreme judgements you've issued.
Because I have reason to doubt an unknown author, you claim I've discredited all the disciples and God.
Because I don't agree with most apologetics and personally have found many of their conclusions inane, empty, lacking sense, silly etc., you claim I have discredited their sources.
You accuse me of not wanting to believe God's message when I've made no such statement. Discerning if an author is true or not does not detract from God's message.
Because I have chosen one quote out of an entire book, you accuse me of not reading the whole book. BTW, I have read the whole book. The fact that Strobel became a Christian wasn't relavant to my post. He made HIS choice based on what HE saw and heard. That's HIS choice. I have to make MY own choice. The quote was to show that Christian scholars agree that the authors of the gospels are technically unknown.
quote:
You discredit me because you don't think I'm "spiritually mature enough", but have you heard of ANYONE who MIGHT be mature enough to suit your requirements?
I explained that my feelings are based on your posts to date. All I know of you are your posts.
Even though I can choose to accept or reject evidence, if I reject or question evidence that you consider to be true, it bothers you.
Now do you understand why I don't want to get into this type of discussion with you? I've already read the apologetics.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Juhrahnimo, posted 01-20-2005 11:08 AM Juhrahnimo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Juhrahnimo, posted 01-20-2005 10:57 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 160 of 164 (179337)
01-21-2005 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by lfen
01-20-2005 1:25 PM


Founders
quote:
What purpose(s) do founders of any religion have? What purposes did the founders of Judaism, Islam, Jainism, Zorastarism, Buddhism, Taosim, etc. have?
I wonder if dissatifaction with their current religion was part of what drove the respective founders to change.
The Jews tell a story of Abraham destroying the idols in his fathers shop. He found the idols didn't do anything and was dissatisfied.
As the Greek influence came into Israel area, some Jewish reformers tried to get Judasim to ease up on the more restrictive rules, especially the ones that kept the men out of the athletic games.
The movement after the destruction of the temple may have been a continuation of that idea. Some people were dissatisfied with the Jewish religion.
In a book on Jewish history I found a comment that Mohammed wanted to turn his people away from polytheism and was impressed by Judaism's uncompromising monotheism. He did not view Christianity as monotheistic. So Mohammed was also dissatisfied with his people's current religion and sought.
From what I have read about John Smith, he was also dissatisfied with Christianity of his day.
Didn't Buddha also seek to make changes?
It seems to be a recurring theme that I've noticed in what I have read. Have you noticed it?

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by lfen, posted 01-20-2005 1:25 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by lfen, posted 01-21-2005 1:57 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
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