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Author | Topic: The Whole Jesus Thing | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:A change which way? A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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Lithodid-Man Member (Idle past 2962 days) Posts: 504 From: Juneau, Alaska, USA Joined: |
Purpledawn,
I was in no way arguing for or against God's opinion of burnt offerings. I was trying to point out that using single line, out-of-context quotes to support a position might be wrong.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 643 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Well,, you certainly are trying to dance round it. He either was a son of man, or he wasn't. The alledged status of 'son of god' is irrelavent.
And, there is no salvation in the son of man.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 643 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Of course, in the Jewish tradition, someone else can not take your sin upon you. While it was a tradition about the scape goat and the sacficial lamb for a while, another person can not take their sin upon you. The only way for atonment is to personally ask for forgiveness yourself.
The story of Abraham and Issac is taken by traditional Judaism to mean that God would never require a human sacrifice. That is what apparently the 'sin' offering is.
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The story of Abraham and Issac is taken by traditional Judaism to mean that God would never require a human sacrifice. That is what apparently the 'sin' offering is. IMHO there are several layers to the "Jesus Thing". First, GOD can forgive sin. Can we agree on that much? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1375 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
A change which way? away from an antiquated system of sacrifice, and a blood-thirsty god, and towards a more abstract ideal. just my thought, anyways.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 643 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Yes, and how does God forgive sin? What are the requirements for atonement? Well, let's first look at Isaiah 1:11-18
"11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me? saith the L-rd; I am full of the burnt-offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he-goats. 12 When ye come to appear before Me, who hath required this at your hand, to trample My courts? 13 Bring no more vain oblations; it is an offering of abomination unto Me; new moon and sabbath, the holding of convocations--I cannot endure iniquity along with the solemn assembly. 14 Your new moons and your appointed seasons My soul hateth; they are a burden unto Me; I am weary to bear them. 15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide Mine eyes from you; yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear; your hands are full of blood. 16 Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from before Mine eyes, cease to do evil; 17 Learn to do well; seek justice, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the L-rd"And then, lets look at Miciah 6:7-8 "7 Will the L-rd be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?' 8 It hath been told thee, O man, what is good, and what the L-rd doth require of thee: only to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy G-d. And in Proverbs 21:3"3 To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the L-rd than sacrifice." In Horshea, it is claimed that prayer is better than sacrifice.12:2-3 2 Return, O Israel, unto the L-rd thy G-d; for thou hast stumbled in thine iniquity. 3 Take with you words, and return unto the L-rd; say unto Him: 'Forgive all iniquity, and accept that which is good; so will we render for bullocks the offering of our lips." So, in ancient Hebrew tradition, a blood sacrifice is not required foratonement. And a human sacrifice is forbidden (the story of Issac and Abraham established that).
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote: Jesus even said:
Matthew 9:13 But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 643 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Now, that sounds like a nice Jewish boy.
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
So we both agree that GOD can forgive sins.
I believe that your information on the acts of atonement is a little premature. Can we put those off for a moment if I promise that we will return to that subject? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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lfen Member (Idle past 4708 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
First, GOD can forgive sin. Can we agree on that much? If we are limiting the discussion to Christian theology I'll accept that. I use the eastern model of divinity and there it's not sin but karma and in that system at the level of samsara karma rules. What can happen is that divinity awakens from it's dream of an individual and at the level of nirvana karma doesn't apply at all. So I would say forgiveness of sins is a good thing but not the ultimate good. The chief grace is awakening and that is by grace and renders sin moot. So I'll give you a provisional agreement. lfen
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ramoss Member (Idle past 643 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Well, assuming that there is a god, yes, he/she/it can forgive sins.
That is those sins against She/he/it. If you sin against someone else, only they can forgive you for that. But what is a sin? Why would a human sacrifice be needed to forgive ANOTHERS sins? This message has been edited by ramoss, 11-14-2004 02:20 PM
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Legend Member (Idle past 5037 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
Angel writes: Jesus is the Son of man, (mankind), in that He was born of Mary, Jesus is the Son of God, in that He was born of God. Mary is His mother=son of man God His Father= Son of God So, was He Man? or was He God? was He both? ...or neither? "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1375 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
And a human sacrifice is forbidden (the story of Issac and Abraham established that). what specifically forbids it? i know it's not generally accepted and doesn't fit the levitical standards, but i don't see how the isaac story goes against anything... then again i haven't read it in a while. am i forgetting something?
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Okay.
Why would a human sacrifice be needed to forgive ANOTHERS sins? Well, I don't think a human sacrifice is or was needed.
That is those sins against She/he/it. If you sin against someone else, only they can forgive you for that. It can get complicated, can't it? Remember, all I can do here is try to explain how I see the issue so it is very likely that you and others may well disagree. That's fine. As I have said before on here, loving GOD is a matter of actions rather than profession or belief. It goes back to the second of the great commandments, "Love others as you love yourself". When you do not do that, when you do not act in that way, it is a sin. Under that premise, all sins are at least two fold, they are an act against another and an act against GOD. The "Jesus Thing" IMHO, is more than just his death. It is his life, his teachings, his death and resurection. The fact that he died is not the salvation or the sacrifice. The fact that he lived, that GOD became man, walked among us, taught us, was man with all of the limitations that entails, was the sacrifice. Jesus death, his crucifixion, was the direct result of challenging the system. Given human nature, it was an enevitable result. Jesus said, "Folk, things really aren't as complicated at the system wants you to think. You don't need to support the layers of priests. You don't need all of the myriad laws. You can come talk to Dad anytime, any place, for any reason. If you have problems, just ask." It was as though someone had shown up and simply torn up the existing tax code and shown there was no need for all the overhead. He had to go, had to be silenced. And the way that was done at the time was crucifixion. It was not an unusual punishment, in fact on the day he was crucified, there were at least two others. So as a summary. IMHO, Jesus Life is the sign of GOD's forgiveness. It is that GOD took on human form, walked among us, lived with us, taught us that is the sacrifice. The issue cannot be complete without including his death and resurection. And that is the message, the symbol, the meaning of the Jesus Thing. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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