The Whole Jesus Thing

Yaro, "How is Jesus dieing for us the 'ultimate gift'?"
Reply For a Christian it is simply so that we could be forgiven of our sins.Yaro,"Was not Jesus God?"
Reply No, He isn't God.Yaro,"So God killed himself so we could go to heven?"
Reply No, He didn't. Jesus died so that we could inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.Yaro,"Couldn't god just make everyone 'saved', why does he need to kill himself for it?"
Reply According to the Old Law, no He couldn't. There had to be a sacrifice (Jesus), so that His words would not be hipocritical. God isn't a liar, so thus to keep with the Old Law, (it is written so it shall be done) it had to be done.

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Angel

* Because God said so, that is the only honest answer that I can give. I personally don't question Him, but I can see your point that He could have done away with it all together.* Yes I am saying, not suggesting, that they are different. I tried to limit my views of this on this post, because it wasn't the subject. I am not worried about 'traditional' church teachings, simply because they can add to or take away what they want. Again a different topic. But that should at least give you an idea of where I stand with this.* Here are some scriptures in the OT that pertain to Jesus' coming.
* Genesis 3:14-15
* Genesis 12:1-3
* Exodus 12:1-13
* Deuteronomy 18:14-19
* 2 Samuel 7:11-13
* Joel 2:28-32Sacrifice may be looked upon now differently than it was then. If we were living at that particular time, it wouldn't even be considered a ligitimate question. I can't see myself putting up my own son for the sake of someone else. But in turn, I could see myself giving up my life to save my loved ones. I am unaware of any law that says human sacrifice makes God happy. Again I can't answer your last question with anything but, because God said so. I can't answer, nor can anyone else honestly, questions that pertain to the way He thinks.

* Because God said so, that is the only honest answer that I can give. I personally don't question Him, but I can see your point that He could have done away with it all together.* Yes I am saying, not suggesting, that they are different. I tried to limit my views of this on this post, because it wasn't the subject. I am not worried about 'traditional' church teachings, simply because they can add to or take away what they want. Again a different topic. But that should at least give you an idea of where I stand with this.* Here are some scriptures in the OT that pertain to Jesus' coming.
* Genesis 3:14-15
* Genesis 12:1-3
* Exodus 12:1-13
* Deuteronomy 18:14-19
* 2 Samuel 7:11-13
* Joel 2:28-32Sacrifice may be looked upon now differently than it was then. If we were living at that particular time, it wouldn't even be considered a ligitimate question. I can't see myself putting up my own son for the sake of someone else. But in turn, I could see myself giving up my life to save my loved ones. I am unaware of any law that says human sacrifice makes God happy. Again I can't answer your last question with anything but, because God said so. I can't answer, nor can anyone else honestly, questions that pertain to the way He thinks.

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Angel

Hi Purpledawn,

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Where in the OT is this stated?

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It is written throughout the OT, here are a few examples:

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Isaiah 50:6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.

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Isaiah 52:13-15 See, my servant will act wisely; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him; his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness- 15 so will he sprinkle many nations, and kings will shut their mouths because of him. For what they were not told, they will see, and what they have not heard, they will understand.

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Isaiah 53 Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand. After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

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Zechariah 12:10-14 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, and all the rest of the clans and their wives.

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Zechariah 13:6 If someone asks him, 'What are these wounds on your body?' he will answer, 'The wounds I was given at the house of my friends.'

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Psalm 22:14-18 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted away within me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death. Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

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Angel

hi dpardo,I want to answer these questions, so I started a new post, please go to it and I will be happy to share, I didn't want to go off topic. So I will respond there

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Angel

No, you are right, it doesn't. It doesn't say those words exactly. But it does say it. It explains, in detail, what is to happen. I was just trying to save time, and probably should have claryfied that. It does tell of a human sacrifice (Jesus), and it tells it in the Book of Law (Psalms, Proverbs, etc.), so to simply say, that it didn't say that there was no mention of a human sacrifice, would be wrong. By it saying what was to be, and by being written in the Book of Law, makes it so, though it doesn't 'come right out and say it'.

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Angel

If you honestly can't see where it fortells of it, then that is fine with me. I see it, and so do millions of others. I guess when/if the time is right, you will be able to see it too. God Bless

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Angel

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And yet, millions of others know you are both wrong for reading the bible and not the Koran, andother millions think you should maybe look at the really existing world rather than some dusty tome.

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I never said that there wasn't? While, unlike others, I do not condone these other views, I do not condemn them either.

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In other words, that is not an answer.

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Yes, I agree that isn't an answer, again, I never said that it was. I had already answered the question, and stated scripture, now if the person reading it doesn't understand it, and I have explained it the best that I could, isn't it ok that I see things differently, and to find your answer elsewhere, (from someone else)? It is not my intent to confuse anyone, if asked a legitimate question, I will answer as best I can, that doesn't mean that my best is always good enough, so I left it at that.

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If you calim that you can see it in the text, it is not enough to merely assert that: if you cannot explkain how you come to your conclusion nobody has any reason to take your assertion seriously.

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It was explained, if you look you will see an explanation. I could care less if you take me serious, I assure you, I will lose no sleep. It seems that a few people that I have discussed with, want me to answer in a way that suits them, and that will never happen. One thing, that you must know about me, is that it is ok for me not to agree with you, and it is ok for you not to agree with me.

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Angel

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sorry, but I don't see it either. Could you point it out to me please?

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*sigh* Yes, I can point it out, from my viewpoint, simply by telling you to read the scripture that I posted. That doesn't mean that you will see it, though I wish that you could. That's the only explanation that I can give except my personal beliefs, which is never accepted as an answer in discussions such as this.

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Angel

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You state that God could not have done without the sacrifice of a human to save everyone from sin because of what was said in the "Old Law." You have yet to show me where it is stated in the "Old Law." None of the verses you showed me in Message 129 are part of the "Old Law."

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I beg to differ, the Old Law consists of the entire Old Testament. I say this because there are laws (commandments) in each book. Jesus simply fulfilled the Old Law, therefore making a New Law.

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In Message 111 Yaro also asked where the sacrificial need for human blood was in the "Old Law."

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And your answer in Message 123 is just that "God said so."

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I see, so would you prefer that I make up a reason? I answered her honestly, from my viewpoint, are you saying that is wrong?

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So at the right time, the words should read differently?

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In a sense, yes. You have understanding of the Bible, when you have the Holy Ghost within you. This is clearly explained in the Bible. I was once just as alot of you are, I would even go as far as saying, that I was moreso against the Bible, than anyone I have ever encountered. Nothing you could possible say could offend me, because nothing you could possible say, isn't something that hasn't already been spoken, from my own mouth.

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Of course I haven't had a Christian yet who could truly answer the question about where God shows the need for human sacrifice to cover sins. The supposed prophecies of a coming messiah don't prove a need for human sacrifice to make mankind right with God.

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Well I beg to differ again, simply because if it didn't happen that would make Him a false prophet, which I strongly disagree with. Now if your question was as the original question, which was why would God choose to do it this way, you could have any answer that you want, but the only answer to be given to that question, that would be an honest answer, is simply I don't know. Just as you can't tell me why I do what I do, because you can't see my thoughts. Therefore if it isn't explained, you can only make assumptions, which does not make them the truth.

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Christianity contends that Jesus was a necessary sacrifice to atone for the sins of mankind. Unfortunately they can't back up this claim.

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Well, sure they can! Have you ever read the Bible with an open mind, or just to try and prove it wrong. I won't go into this futher, I only wanted to say that is an incorrect assumption, from my viewpoint, and any Christian can plainly see that it was necessary.

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Many Christians think of sacrifice, as you mentioned, as giving up oneself for loved ones. Which may be closer to the truth than the sacrifice for sins.

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Good point, but aren't the two the same? I make a sacrifice of myself for my children (figuratively speaking), God made a sacrifice for His children?

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Jesus may have let himself be taken and crucified to save the Jewish community from Roman punishment.

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Dawn, I say this with no sarcastic intent. The problem that I have with this statement is this. When a Christian responds with an answer/comment that includes the word 'may', everyone jumps as fast as they can to say, may? Show me facts....etc.etc.etc. However, when a non-believer says it, it is simply, ok. I accept your 'may' as your belief, in return you should except my 'may' as mine.

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Angel

Ramoss,You said this:

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None of which exlusively and implicitly says Jesus said he was god.

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And I say, thank you. Jesus in fact wasn't God Himself, and I agree with this statement.

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Angel

Ramoss,You said this:

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None of which exlusively and implicitly says Jesus said he was god.

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And I say, thank you. Jesus in fact wasn't God Himself, and I agree with this statement.

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Angel

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the sacrifice of a human to sin would be abhorent,..

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It is a fact that humans in general would not be acceptable as sacrifices because their sin made them imperfect, and only perfect sacrifices were acceptable. Since Jesus was free of sin, Jesus is the only human who could ever be accepted as a sacrifice.

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Angel

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The Law consists of the Mosaic Laws of the Jews and the Oral Law. It is not considered to be the entire Old Testament.

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It is fine with me that you believe this way, actually most people do, so you are of the majority. However I did clarify for you what was meant when I said it.

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I have over 40 years of Christianity, Bible Study, and Church involvement under my belt. I do understand the reality of the Bible. I do read with an open mind.

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That's great! But unfortunatly, it doesn't mean that you are always right, it doesn't mean that you are always wrong either.

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I don't, however, support religious dogma and tradition.

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So, like me, you learn for yourself. I have no objections to this, and wish more people would do the same.

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My may is a possible theory not a belief.

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That is an interesting statement, and would love for you to clarify it. It sure would clear up alot of everyones answers, if you have some proof of your beliefs! You see, anyone who studies, discusses, thinks about, etc. ANYTHING to do with God, or the Bible in general, are making assumptions (aka. belief). I would love to hear the physical proof that you have that makes it a theory and not a belief!?!?

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You obviously do not intend to clarify your vague answers.

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What exactly haven't I answered? The one where I said 'if you can't see it...'? I explained then, as I will again, that's the only answer that I can give. Hmmm...so let me get this straight, since I can't explain it in a way that makes sense to you, and forgo all of the back and forthness (attempted anyway, it's easy to see that it didn't turn out that way) I haven't explained myself? I tried, so what else, you want me to make up my own 'theory'? I think not, because to have a theory you need proof, physical proof to prove it, can you please, again share this proof?

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So good luck on the forum.

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Yes, thanks! ( even though you didn't mean it )

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Angel

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you're actually both wrong, and i can say this with a reasonable degree of certainty.

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And I would have to say that technically you are absolutely correct. I was speaking generally, and explained what it meant to me though.

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Angel