The Whole Jesus Thing

I don't see how taking mistranslations out of context from a book written by a bronze age people prophecises anything. Sure, you can retrofit it into your belief system, by taking things out of context,
and forcing concepts on it that the writer never had, but if you read the passages honestly, what you claim is there is not there.This message has been edited by ramoss, 11-10-2004 07:37 AM

You are misunderstanding the Tanakah (I.E. the old testament). Some of the laws are in the Torah (the pentach), but there is also a strong oral tradition. The Prophets and the Writings are not part of the Torah.MOre information can be found at Torah - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

And of course, that makes Jesus the son of man.. and psalm 146:3 says
DO NOT PUT YOUR FAITH IN PRINCES, OR IN THE SON OF MAN, IN WHOM THERE IS NO SALVATION.

Well, that is what writer of the Gospel of John claims. However, the gospel of John was written between 90 and 120 C.E. and I don't think is
an accurate reprentation of events.

Well, then why did he? He got rid of the laws that were so very important to the Jewish faith in effort to get Gentile converts.Those followers of James apprently stayed devote Jews.. and the followers of Paul started diverging from it.

Hey, I think the way the writers of the New Testament distort and lie about the Tankah is horrendous. Got to keep them honest.

I notice that the words attributed to Jesus specifically does not mention the Kthuvim...

You are reading Isaiah out of context with wishful thinking. The servant of god is the nation of Isreal. The writer of that portion of Isaiah says so himself, just previous to Isaiah 53.

Yet, according to many passages in the New testament, including references you made yourself, Jesus is the Son of man.Double standard there?? Ignoring what you don't want to??

Chapter 41:8 But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me, 9 Whom I grasped from the ends of the earth, and from its nobles I called you, and I said to you, "You are My servant"Chapter 44:1 And now, hearken, Jacob My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen. 2 So said the Lord your Maker, and He Who formed you from the womb shall aid you. Fear not, My servant Jacob, and Jeshurun whom I have chosen. ... 21 Remember these, O Jacob; and Israel, for you are My servant; I formed you that you be a servant to Me, Israel, do not forget Me.Chapter 49:3 And He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast."

Well,, you certainly are trying to dance round it. He either was a son of man, or he wasn't. The alledged status of 'son of god' is irrelavent.And, there is no salvation in the son of man.

Of course, in the Jewish tradition, someone else can not take your sin upon you. While it was a tradition about the scape goat and the sacficial lamb for a while, another person can not take their sin upon you. The only way for atonment is to personally ask for forgiveness yourself.The story of Abraham and Issac is taken by traditional Judaism to mean that God would never require a human sacrifice. That is what apparently the 'sin' offering is.

Yes, and how does God forgive sin? What are the requirements for atonement? Well, let's first look at Isaiah 1:11-18
"11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me? saith the L-rd; I am full of the burnt-offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he-goats.

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12 When ye come to appear before Me, who hath required this at your hand, to trample My courts?

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13 Bring no more vain oblations; it is an offering of abomination unto Me; new moon and sabbath, the holding of convocations--I cannot endure iniquity along with the solemn assembly.

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14 Your new moons and your appointed seasons My soul hateth; they are a burden unto Me; I am weary to bear them.

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15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide Mine eyes from you; yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear; your hands are full of blood.

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16 Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from before Mine eyes, cease to do evil;

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17 Learn to do well; seek justice, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow

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18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the L-rd"

And then, lets look at Miciah 6:7-8
"7 Will the L-rd be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?'

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8 It hath been told thee, O man, what is good, and what the L-rd doth require of thee: only to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy G-d.And in Proverbs 21:3

"3 To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the L-rd than sacrifice."
In Horshea, it is claimed that prayer is better than sacrifice.
12:2-3

2 Return, O Israel, unto the L-rd thy G-d; for thou hast stumbled in thine iniquity.

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3 Take with you words, and return unto the L-rd; say unto Him: 'Forgive all iniquity, and accept that which is good; so will we render for bullocks the offering of our lips."
So, in ancient Hebrew tradition, a blood sacrifice is not required for
atonement. And a human sacrifice is forbidden (the story of Issac and Abraham established that).

Now, that sounds like a nice Jewish boy.

Well, assuming that there is a god, yes, he/she/it can forgive sins.
That is those sins against She/he/it. If you sin against someone else, only they can forgive you for that.But what is a sin? Why would a human sacrifice be needed to forgive ANOTHERS sins?This message has been edited by ramoss, 11-14-2004 02:20 PM