The Whole Jesus Thing

So did David not understand God's laws when he wrote in Psalm 40 that he felt God did not desire or require sacrifice or offerings? or in Psalm 51 Yes I read the chapters completely.

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A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

i think it has more to do with a change in the religion.

Dear God (or Yaheweh, Jehovah, Jesus, Q)
I am sorry that a distant (probably mythological) ancestor of mine ate the fruit of a tree that you said would kill us. His wife ate the fruit and was still alive so he apparentlty ate it as well. Because of that you sent your son several thousand years later to die in a horrible way so that we could be forgiven of this sin. I guess a thank you is in order? - Aaron (you know where to find me, I suppose)Whether or not the Trinity concept (one of Angel's recent topics) is valid or not the sacrifice is meaningless (returning to Yaro's excellent topic). If Jesus was God in the flesh then being crucified was a cake walk. Even being dead wasn't much. Going to Hell? It was three freakin' days. If Jesus was part of God's family, then same rules apply. No real sacrifice. If I were an omnipotent being it might be fun to endure some mortal torture for a bit.

Exactly. Very, very true. That is the essence of a Gift Freely Given.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Don't blame you. That sure wouldn't be all that neat. Fortunately, the gift was not death but rather forgivness of sin and life everlasting.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

when did you turn evangelical, jar?

and I'm somewhat saddened that we still have not really dealt with "The whole Jesus Thing". I had great hopes for this thread and just sorry they did not pan out. It could have been a fascinating discussion.Maybe what we need are some facilitated discussions?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

maybe we need to impress on people more that we're debating one topic at a time, and that we shouldn't have to go over the basics every damned time. i dunno if that's what happened here, but it's what usually does.

I wouldn't mind continuing the topic into a part 2.As the person who starte the thread, I kinda feel like the major issues in the OP were never fully addressed. I found myself reitterating my points constantly, and the people on the other side doing the same.Of course, this may be because that's really all there is to the argument :/Sad really.

Yaro,I think you've tackled an important but obviously difficult subject. Reading your posts I find you giving the clearest statement of the problems I feel are inherent in the Judeo Christian concept of the human condition. I want to thank you for this thread and I want to encourage you to continue it.I can understand why scientifically naive people might be comfortable with the Christian myth, but I still don't understand why people like C.S. Lewis who know better revert to believing. So in a fragmentary format of an online debate forum I don't think we can expect a lot, and yet I find much of interest and value in this thread, particularly in the clarity with which you demonstrate the contradictions of the Christian myth solution.Thanks, and lets keep this thread going!lfen

Sacrifice implies giving not loosing. I sacrificed my coat when I gave it to a friend in the movies because she was cold and so was I but I gave up my comfort for hers. I lost my coat when I went to the movies cause I left it in the seat. See the difference. He was not the one who sinned he didnt have to leave his place in heaven and come down here and experience all that we experience (and succeed in doing so)but he gave everything up for us. And as I said before his sacrifice is a symbol of what the christian lifestyle should be. Sacrificing the desires that harm us and doing what you have to do to make good and healthy desicions for ourselves. The purpose of his resurection was to let the world know that death cannot defeat God. Nothing mortal can escape death but he became one of us abd did it. Ill go with option C) You dont understand. Haven't you ever been on a rollercoaster. You know youre gonna be okay but you still get scared in the process. Remember that Jesus was God trapped in a mans body. He knew that he was gonna be okay but he couldn't help getting frightend or stop thinking about how horrible the pain was gonna be. So yes, Jesus is God and yes he was talking to himself if you see it that way. God is like a company. Theres the president the vicepresident and the secretary. The Father-president Jesus-vicepresident Holy Spirit-secretary each of them are individuals but come together to form the company. Oh and the angels are the workers. NO, without the accept jesus we all go to hell. Yes the purpose of sacrifice was to wash it all away but you have to accept the sacrifice by living a life guided in jesus christ. If you live a life where you dont give a crap about what God thinks then youre indirectly saying I dont want your sacrifice. When you join a club like a fraternity for example you have to act by their rules if not youll be kicked out. If you want to be a citizen of your country youll have to obey the law or get punished. Everything works like this.On a personal note I like your eyes a lot

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Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova

I see where youre going with this. Youre basically saying that youre not responsible for adam and eves desicion. You are right. You are not responsible for his desicion but you still feel its effects. Let's suppose you're a miserable alcoholic. You go out every night and get drunk. You come home and for some stupid thing you give your kid a horrible beating almost every time you get drunk. Your kid is not responsible for your desicion of getting drunk but he pays for it every time you come home. We are not responsible for adam and eves mistakes but still we pay for it by inheritng sin and death. We just have to go to DR. Jesus and find a cure for our inherited spiritual diseases. Well nobody is stopping you. You know your soul is eternal and what better way of finding out if what im saying is true.

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Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova

Yaro,I think part of the problem is that to understand this we need to look at the development of primitive religions. This requires backgrounds in anthropology and comparative religion and those fields don’t seem to be nearly as well represented on this forum compared to science and Christianity. Well, the mission statement for the EvC forum selects for that.I remember reading, so long ago I’ve forgotten who or what I was reading, that primitive hunters felt a kinship with all animals and even plants. They recognized their dependence on game animals felt gratitude and guilt when killing for food and so would offer part of the dead animal to the spirit(s) of the animal(s) to propitiate their guilt and to beseech favor of good hunting in the future.
I don’t know if this view has been supported in later work so I offer it only as a possible avenue of exploration for the development of sacrifice in religion.I also don’t know what research has been done on the transformation of primitive religion into the religion of the city states. I’m sure a lot has been done somewhere in academia but I’m ignorant at this point. It does seem that human consciousness has deep long standing issues of guilt and that this has been one factor in the development of religion.I think a late developed mature religion such as Christianity is not going to offer much insight into it’s mechanisms. I think we have to go further back but of course we have little in the way evidence so we are working on conjecture. I have a philosophical bent and I enjoy that but that may be unsatisfactory for many contributors.In eastern though we find other interpretations of sacrifice having to do with the theme of liberation and so sacrifice is not a real loss but rather a giving up that which holds us in bondage, but that would probably be off topic in this thread.What I am saying is that a debate between atheistic and fundamentalists will tend to be just a sharpening of the differences that will lead to little understandings. To really illuminate this topic would require more academic explorations of the subject. I hope that happens. I would be grateful for any recommended readings on primitive or comparative religions that address the role of sacrifice.lfen

Put it all in the hands of god and fu*k the rest of the world. The start of all wisdome is the fear of Jehova.I'll reply to your post latter. Just thought Id throw that out. heheheThis message has been edited by Yaro, 11-13-2004 01:59 PM

Thats my way of saying I put everthing in your hands and I dont care what anybody thinks. I could of have said it prettier but slang sometimes works better.

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Ponlo todo en las manos de Dios y que se joda el mundo. El principio de la sabiduria es el temor a Jehova