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Author Topic:   The Whole Jesus Thing
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2962 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 221 of 286 (158911)
11-12-2004 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Angel
11-11-2004 6:33 AM


The Isaiahs must be turning in their graves....
Over and over again I hear single lines from Isaiah (and Jeremiah, and Psalms, etc) taken completely out of context and used to make grand sweeping generalizations about Jesus, God, etc. or force-fit as prophesy.
Angel, I am sorry but the first chapter of Isaiah isn't God explaining details of his nature in a broad sense. Like, "By the way, that killing animal thing, not so much of that anymore okay?". Instead it is God expressing his anger at Israel for following the ritual of the Law while sinning. It is like if my child were exceptionally badly behaved one day and said "I'm sorry". I might reply "Sorry doesn't cut it little mister!". I am not saying "From now until you are 18 you are never to apologize again". I AM saying that sorry isn't going make it alright this time. God is telling the nation of Israel that their "sorry" (sacrifices, rituals, etc) simply aren't enough.
I cannot see how an objective reading of the first chapter of Isaiah could be taken to mean anything else. In verse 15 God says "When you stretch out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen" (The New Oxford Annotated Bible). This makes perfect sense in the context outlined above (God is speaking as if to a naughty child). If, as Angel claims, Isaiah is revealing the nature of God then the only logical conclusion is that God is and has been cut off from man since at least 2700 years ago. He doesn't see us, he doesn't hear us, etc. No Christian would make that claim yet to believe both interpretations simultaneously (that verse 11 means general nature of God, while verse 15 is merely referring to that time and on that occassion) is ridiculous.
I believe that, like most of the OT quote mining, using Isaiah 1:11 to prove that God doesn't like or want blood sacrifice only can be reasoned if one was told explicitly "this means this, go look it up." What I am saying (a point made repeatedly on this forum by others far wiser than myself) is that the "obvious" meaning of these quotes is only obvious if you are told what they mean and told to accept no other interpretaion. I find it impossible to believe that anyone reading (for example) Isaiah chapter 7 with no bias would ever conclude it was about Jesus. It is like that with all of the so-called prophetic verses supposedly concerning Jesus from the OT. I highly doubt that the people who claim it is clear and obvious would ever have seen it unless pointed that direction.
And that brings me to another point (I apologize in advance, I am on a rant). I am really sick and tired of this argument that you only think these verses are misinterpreted and out of context because God has denied you the magic ability to see the truth. (btw, Angel hasn't, to the best of my knowledge, used this argument here. I really appreciate that) I once went to a friend's house because she challenged me that five minutes in her "ghost-buster" parent's house would send me out screaming. When no ghosts appeared I was told that my disbelief and negative energy prevented the ghosts from manifesting themselves. It's the same argument. That the OT is all about Jesus is true and obvious IF you believe unquestioningly that the OT is all about Jesus. If you have the slightest doubt then you are punished by being only able to find a completely different meaning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Angel, posted 11-11-2004 6:33 AM Angel has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by jar, posted 11-12-2004 8:47 PM Lithodid-Man has not replied
 Message 226 by purpledawn, posted 11-13-2004 7:27 AM Lithodid-Man has replied

  
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2962 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 228 of 286 (159015)
11-13-2004 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by Itachi Uchiha
11-13-2004 1:44 AM


Message to God
If you punched me and i forgave you will you punch me again? If you do you are not acepting my forgiveness. If we keeep living a sinful life knowing the sacrifice God did for us, then we are surely not honoring his sacrifice and we tell him indirectly i dont give a crap about your forgiveness or your love.
Dear God (or Yaheweh, Jehovah, Jesus, Q)
I am sorry that a distant (probably mythological) ancestor of mine ate the fruit of a tree that you said would kill us. His wife ate the fruit and was still alive so he apparentlty ate it as well. Because of that you sent your son several thousand years later to die in a horrible way so that we could be forgiven of this sin. I guess a thank you is in order? - Aaron (you know where to find me, I suppose)
Whether or not the Trinity concept (one of Angel's recent topics) is valid or not the sacrifice is meaningless (returning to Yaro's excellent topic). If Jesus was God in the flesh then being crucified was a cake walk. Even being dead wasn't much. Going to Hell? It was three freakin' days. If Jesus was part of God's family, then same rules apply. No real sacrifice. If I were an omnipotent being it might be fun to endure some mortal torture for a bit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-13-2004 1:44 AM Itachi Uchiha has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-13-2004 1:42 PM Lithodid-Man has not replied

  
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2962 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 242 of 286 (159174)
11-13-2004 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by purpledawn
11-13-2004 7:27 AM


Re: The Isaiahs must be turning in their graves....
Purpledawn,
I was in no way arguing for or against God's opinion of burnt offerings. I was trying to point out that using single line, out-of-context quotes to support a position might be wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by purpledawn, posted 11-13-2004 7:27 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
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