How Can Trinity Believers Explain This

Hi Angel,Very interesting topic.For starters, the trinity doctrine wasn't created at the Council of Nicea, but rather formalized and officially adopted at it. There are trinitarian quotes pre-dating the Nicean Creed (Polycarp, Tertullian et al.) Early Trinitarian quotes.The passages you quote do not contradict the Trinity doctrine, which purports God to be a trinity of persons, distinct in function and behaviour but one in nature and substance. A cliche example, often used, is that of water : you find water in the forms of solid (ice), liquid and gas (steam). Although of different form, they're all the same substance.Furthermore, a number of (mainly O.T.) passages support the nature of One God - Three persons.

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You are My witnesses, declares the Lord, And My servant whom I have chosen, In order that you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me," (Isaiah 43:10).

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Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is o God besides Me (Isaiah 44:6).

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Oh Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD! (Deut. 6:4) .

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I could quote more (mainly Isaiah), but suffice to say that there are plenty of references to the One-ness of God (albeit with three facets).P.S you don't have to answer this, but -out of curiousity- are you LDS by any chance ?This message has been edited by Legend, 11-08-2004 06:39 PM

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

Hi Angel,thanks for your reply. I think the disagreement lies in your interpretation of these passages to be referring to separate beings , while-in fact- they're not. If the Godhead consisted of three separate beings, each with their own essence and purpose (like your family, for example) then we'd be talking about a Triumvirate, not a Trinity. The Godhead consists of three different personnae (for want of a better word), of one essence and one purpose. To be more specific :

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Can you explain to me, how the same being can be standing side by side?

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You're presumably referring to Acts 7:55-56. I think you're interpreting this passage literally. In the context in which it is given (Stephen being stoned to death), it is largely symbolic. The phrase 'on the right hand' is often used to symbolise a position of power and authority. In this context, it symbolises the role of Jesus as a mediator to God.

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Another question I might ask is how can the same being look upon their own face? Such as when Jesus looked upon the face of God?

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Presumably, this is Matthew 3:16-17. Again, no mention of the face of God, but rather the Spirit of God that he saw.Col. 2:9, it states that the fullness of the Godhead is dwelling bodily in Christ. It is not saying that the totality of God is dwelling in the body of Christ. If that was the case, then the totality of God would be located in a single human body and nowhere else. Also, elsewhere in the N.T, Jesus is seen to be praying to the Father. This wouldn't be plausible if the totality of God was within him. Therefore, the logical conclusion is that Col. 2:9 refers to the fulness of the divinity of Christ, i.e. his being fully divine, as well as humanAbout Acts 17:29 and Romans 1:20, again no mention of separate beings. I really can't see how these passages negate the trinity, maybe you could explain ?Also, there are several verses in the O.T where God speaks as a plurality (e.g. Gen. 1:26, Gen. 1:26). These verses wouldn't make sense if God was only one persona, neither if there were three separate Gods. They only make sense, in the context of a 'one God - three facets' doctrine.I think I covered most of the points you raised. If I missed something, or disagree with something please shout. Got to go back to work for now, but I'll log on later.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

what...??! You can't explain the Trinity ?! what happened to 'irrefutable Mike' ?? Dan, please allow me, please, please, please! Based on previous inane rantings, I'd say all mouth and no brains.BUT.....having seen your last posts at the Coffee House, I have to withdraw that statement!

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This is not a definition of a Trinity, but rather of a Triumvirate, or a Triad. There is a huge difference. Members of a Triumvirate or a Triad may share common goals and purpose but they are distinct, separate beings, much like you and your family. Members of a Trinity are of the same essence, though they may exhibit distinct behaviour and form, much like water(ice,water, steam) or time (past, present, future).Which part of the above do you find difficult to understand? You posted some, which I refuted in Message 12. You never replied to this post, so I assume you have nothing to say on these passages. Maybe you'd like to post some more where a reference is made to three three distinct beings.**EDIT message referenceThis message has been edited by Legend, 11-10-2004 06:07 PM

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

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Again, you can call it what you want, I call that one,(2) a Godhead. Which can be found in the Bible.

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But, then you have two definitions of Godhead (1 and 2) which are totaly different. What is the Godhead - a Trinity or a Triad?

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The part where they are all one Being?

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What is so difficult to understand about this ? If you happily accept that a Being crated the universe, why is it hard to accept that this Being has three distinct personnae? Maybe you could point out your difficulty with this concept?

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It gives no reason to not be spoken literally.

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That's a valid point. I suppose, you have to look at it in the context in which it was said. Let's not forget that the Bible was written by men and men use allegory and symbolism all the time. It is difficult to describe exactly what Stephen saw, however there are indications that this sentence is symbolic: (a) he couldn't have seen the Father and (b) Jesus is described as standing, which symbolises empathy and support, rather than the most common posture of sitting.

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1) If no one can see the face of God without gaining instant death, how is it that, if Jesus were God, the people (followers of Christ, judges, Priests, etc.) were even alive to tell about it?
2) Why would Jesus need to pray, if He were in fact God Himself in the flesh?
3) Why would Jesus refer to God as His Father?

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All of the above can be answered by accepting the doctrine of Hypostatic Union. This teaches that Jesus had two natures: divine and human. He had to accept the limitations of his humanity, Hebrews says he was made lower than the angels (Heb 2:9). He is fully human and at the same time, fully divine. As human, Jesus would have to eat, sleep, learn, pray, etc. This doesn't mean, though, that Jesus was not divine since they reference his human nature and not his Divine one. If you accept this, then you can understand why Jesus had to pray, call God his Father and why people who saw his face didn't die. You may want to read up on this doctrine, as there are people out there who can explain it far better than I ever could.

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I must have over looked your earlier post, and apologize for that, I was not trying to ignore you, I don't know how I missed it.

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That's OK - people ignore me all the time. I think it's my aftershave!

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

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What is so difficult to understand about this ? If you happily accept that a Being crated the universe, why is it hard to accept that this Being has three distinct personnae? Maybe you could point out your difficulty with this concept?
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I already have, it was just avoided.

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No, it hasn't! You say that the Bible points to three different beings, but you fail to show how. You seem to be unable to accept the concept that something can have three manifestations and still be one. I find this absurd, particularly when you happily accept that the same being is the creator of everything and can do whatever it wants.

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Just curious as to why you would believe the HU over the words of the Bible though?

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I, personally, don't believe in either. That doesn't mean that I can't understand it or explain it though. And, no, you don't have to believe the HU doctrine over the Bible, you can believe both at the same time. The HU doctrine was developed for that very reason: to make sense of the bible, not to contradict it. To put it bluntly, it was developed to reconcile some of the ..ahem.. difficulties that the Bible presents (dogmatic inconsistencies, et al.). But that's probably another topic for another thread.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

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Not half as absurd as someone thinking that the Creator would pray to Himself, talk to Himself as a second person, etc.

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You seem to be unable (or unwilling) to understand the Hypostatic Union doctrine. What is absurd about Jesus (the man) praying and talking to God ? Here, Jesus' Two Natures , this might help!

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I have yet to see or hear anyone put it so beautifully as Scott Anderson, and am waiting anxiously to see the replys on that.

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what was so beautiful about Scott's post? can you help me out here? maybe you can pick on a specific point and we can discuss that (it was a rather long post!)

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

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For it is impossible for "three to be one and still be three and still be one." The preceding statement is what is called mutually exclusive, a self contradiction.

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Only if you're referring to three beings. If you're referring to three personnae, or manifestations to be one being, then that makes perfect sense.

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For example, in the King James Version 1 John 5:7 reads "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." Sounds like proof of the trinity, only one problem, the verse is spurious and doesn't appear in ancient manuscripts. In the King James Version, 1 Timothy 3:16 states "God was manifest in the flesh," Proof of the trinity? Nope, "God" was added to this verse, it should read "he" instead referring to Jesus and not his father.

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What 'ancient manuscripts' are you referring to? What are you comparing the KJV against ? Some references please!

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For example the most commonly used verse is of course John 1:1 "what, God was, the Word was." (REB) Now the point of this verse is to highlight the Word's (Jesus Christ) pre human existence in heaven with his heavenly father, not that he was the Father. Many Bible translators have chosen to render this verse as "the word was God." Now this translation is very curious considering the wording of the next verse. "He was with God at the Beginning"

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same as above. Some references please!

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

thanks for your input Amlodhi,are you implying that 1 John 5:7-8 was originally one verse, which said :For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one.If yes, which manuscript said this and where can I find some reference to it ?

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

Hi Amlodhi,thanks for the info,I think that the Trinity doctrine was developed to smooth the obvious difficulties in important questions (like 'how many Gods') that arose due to the inconsistencies and ambiguities int the different books. I definitely think that the doctrine does not contradict the KJV. I hadn't realized that the KJV had been altered to accomodate the doctrine.I'll look more into this.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

Angel,did you realize you just described the Trinity?

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

No, no, no, that's exactly the contrary of what I've been saying all along this thread. When you describe the Smiths or the Wilsons, this is not a trinity, as the Smiths consist of three separate beings. They may be united as a family and share common goals and purpose, but -at the end of the day- there's nothing stopping little Joe Smith from getting up one day and leaving his family. This can never happen in a Trinity, as a Trinity consists of one being!! I never thought I'd be saying this, but.......[sigh, shoulders slumped]....I agree with Mike. You refuse to accept the notion that one being can have three co-existent manifestations. The Bible itself (KJV at least) does not contradict this. The concept itself is not alien or illogical (see water or time examples). You appear to almost dogmatically refuse to entertain the idea! I'm happy with the idea of a Trinity - and I'm not even a Christian!

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

OK, you've asked for it! But before I start, I need to straighten one point : The Bible does not purport to clarify how or why the Trinity works. It just describes what it is.
The Trinity doctrine does not appear in the Bible, it is derived from the Bible.Now, that we got that straight, let's start:First of all, the Bible referes to three distinct 'persons'God, the Father

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"For you are our father, though Abraham does not know us and Israel does not acknowledge us; you, O LORD, are our father; our Redeemer from of old is your name (Isaiah 63:16)."

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the Son,

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"Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. Your royal scepter is a scepter of equity; you love righteousness and hate wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions (Psalm 45:6,7)."

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"I have set my king on Zion, my holy hill. I will tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to me, You are my Son; today I have begotten you (Psalm 2:6,7)"

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the Holy Spirit

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"Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them (Isaiah 63:10)"

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Please note here, just to preempt you, that the Holy Spirit is distinguished from God the Father,

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"Then the Lord said, My spirit shall not abide in mortals forever, for they are flesh; their days shall be one hundred twenty years (Genesis 6:3)

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All three 'persons' also appear at the same time :

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"As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased (Matthew 3:16, 17).

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"I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, that he may be with you forever, the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see him or know him, but you know him because he abides with you and will be in you "(John 14:16,17).

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OK so far? So, we have three co-existent distinct 'persons'. Now, how many Gods are there ? well, that's pretty clear:

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"Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me." (Isaiah 44:6).

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"Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none." (Isaiah 44:8),

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so we have One God, three co-existent, distinct 'persons', is that clear so far? Now, one more thing : can we see God?

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"But He [God] said, ‘You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!'" (Exodus 33:20)

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"No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father; He has explained Him." (John 1:18)

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But, hang on.....God has appeared to people!

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"Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day." (Gen. 18:1)

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"God spoke further to Moses and said to him, ‘I am the LORD; and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name LORD I did not make myself known to them.'"(Ex. 6:2-3)

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"Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they beheld God, and they ate and drank."(Exodus 24:9-11)

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If we cannot see God, but God has made appearances, what did the people see ? Obviously, someone else in the Godhead. Another facet, not God the Father, but Jesus before his incarnation, i.e. the Word.So, to recap, we have One God, three co-existent, distinct and divine 'persons' . What do we call that? ....ta da dah......[drumroll]......the Trinity!We cannot see God, but yet God appears. What explains this contradiction ? ....ta da dah......[drumroll]......the Trinity!There, what's so difficult about that?

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

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The Bible itself (KJV at least) does not contradict this.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, then point out where the KJV contradicts the concept of the Trinity!As for the original vs copy accuracy, when you get hold of the original manuscripts, let me (and the rest of the world) know and we'll talk about it.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

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Hey - what do you mean never? You've only known me a short while.

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picky, picky. There: 'Never, while I've been posting at EvC.....'
happy, now?

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Hey - I could well be wrong though

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I'm tempted here, but won't say anything. See how nice I am?

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."