How Can Trinity Believers Explain This

Angel,Welcome. I'm curious as to what you think God is. It appears you think God has a body with a face and a backside. Do you think this body is made of some substance and has a form and a function? Does this body dwell inside the Universe we know or somewhere outside it?Thank you,
lfen

Contain your insolent baba! No - I can, I just am not on the ball today, you lil welsh chump. *Bonk*. Now omni-mike is wrath - he shall make you inherit a barren and desolate land. Oh - I forget, your welsh. Angel, I'll answer your post later on, honestly. This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 11-09-2004 12:30 PM

Ifen,

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I'm curious as to what you think God is. It appears you think God has a body with a face and a backside. Do you think this body is made of some substance and has a form and a function? Does this body dwell inside the Universe we know or somewhere outside it?

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Well, if this is a serious question, I will take a crack at it, I guess. Does He have a face, well He says that He does. Does He have a back? Again He says that He does. Do I think that He is made of some substance, well, yes, isn't everything? As far as dwelling in the Universe, I have no idea where He is, but I know that He is.

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Exodus 33: 18Moses said, "Please show me your glory." 19And he said, "I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name 'The LORD.' And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. 20But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live." 21And the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, 22and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen."

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Now either I am right in believing Gods Words, or can you explain this in another way?

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Angel

Well, first, these are words written by humans not God. They are stories handed down that include the stories of conversations with God.And second, I see no reason to take them literally. The "face" of God doesn't have to mean eyes, nose, mouth but could mean direct experience of reality for example.Substance = matter = energy? But what is consciousness? energy? energy in the form of matter? What is a being? an energetic process of local transformations of the energy/matter of the universe. It's like a whirlpool in a river, for a while the water swirls and then the pattern dissipates.lfen

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I see no reason to take them literally. The "face" of God doesn't have to mean eyes, nose, mouth but could mean direct experience of reality for example.

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Maybe you see no reason, because you do not believe. Could be possible, not sure. However, because you see no reason, doesn't make your theory so. We were made in His own image, it's a simple conclussion, from that statement alone, that He has a face. If I were to say that I see no reason to take evolution literally, would that make it so? No, absolutely not. This is a silly argument, that I don't care to have, if you have a logical statement, please share, otherwise, I could care less about your 'theory'. Just so that you know, I am strong in my faith, and you could never touch it with any theory that you could possible throw my way. Yes! Even evolution. Scientific fact, yes I am aware. Do I believe it is so? Maybe, have no reason not to believe in most of it.

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Angel

I wasn't attempting to change your faith I was giving you an example of how I interpreted "face". What I want is an example from you. Do you mean a face with eyes, nose, mouth? I just don't have an idea of what you mean. If I take you literally you say I'm being obnoxious, but then please give me enough details so that I can understand what you mean by face, back, or being.lfen

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What I want is an example from you. Do you mean a face with eyes, nose, mouth? I just don't have an idea of what you mean.

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Ok, maybe I wasn't clear, when I said He has a face. A face includes mouth, eyes, ears, nose. So of course I think that He has all the characteristics of a human face, we were made in His own image. I have never ran across this argument/discussion before, so I apologize if you are being sincere, it really seems silly to me?

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Angel

Hi Angel,Can I ask what you mean by Trinity? You ask things like how a trinity theory can be explained against the given passages, and I think that I can be of some help with that, but before I do I was wondering what you mean when you say the word 'trinity.'God Bless!Winston

Well, we are from two very different worlds, I've never met anyone who said that God had eyes, nose, mouth before. I mean I know about anthropomorphic gods like the Greeks had but I'd always heard that Yahweh was a spirit not a body, so I hadn't until now thought you had meant it as literally as you apparently do.lfen

God is definately Spirit (See John 4:24). The thing about the God of the Bible is that if He is truly a God who is infinite in his being and all of His attributes, there is no possible way that finite beings such as ourselves can possibly fully understand Him. The anthropomorphisms used in the Hebrew writings are simply God's way of explaining Himself in terms that we can understand. God may have some sort of substance, but not in the sense that we would understand it, because God created the substance that we are familiar with.PS: Saying that we can't fully understand God has nothing to do with the fact that God is not the author of confusion, it has everything to do with God's infinite nature. God never meant for us to fully understand Him, probably because it would be, in fact, confusion.*Edited because I mistyped the John referenceThis message has been edited by winston123180, 11-09-2004 10:42 PM

Hmmm, it's been a few hours and Angel's not around, so I'm going to post this before she answers my last question. I've got alot of homework to get working on.I'm not sure what you mean when you ask for a defense of the Trinity in the light of those verses, so I am going to explain what most evangelical Bible scholars would call the Trinity. The verses that you sited are great, because they show the fact that there is Pluralism in the Godhead (more than one person), but in order to form a complete idea of what the Bible teaches on a subject it is important to look at all scriptures dealing with the issue, not just a select few.The word "Trinity" is not used in the Bible, as someone mentioned earlier, but the concept that men have given the name to is understood in scripture. There are plenty of theological words that aren't used in scripture but are applied to theological idea today (Antinomianism, Omnipotence, etc.) A good definition for the concept of Trinity is given by Warfield:There is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coequal and coeternal persons, equal in substance but distinct in subsistence.There are three major concepts that need to be understood before fully understanding what we mean when we say "Trinity." These concepts are Unity, Plurality and Equality.Unity is the understanding of a dynamic oneness with implied plurality (such as a cluster of grapes). This is expressed in Deuteronomy 6:4 where it is proclaimed that the Lord God is one. Also, in 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 Paul says that there is no God but one. The example for unity that I like the best (it also shows plurality) is Matthew 28:19. Here it is important to realize that the word used for "name" in the Greek text is singular, but Jesus says to baptize in the "name" of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.Not only is God "one" but the Godhead also involves plurality, which you seem to understand well. This is also seen in Matthew 28:19 as stated above, and Matthew 3:16-17 as you mentioned earlier. The idea here is that there are absolutely three distinct persons.The third concept that we see in scripture that brings us to the idea of the Trinity is that not only is there one God, and not only is there plurality in three Persons, but each one of these Persons is equally described as God. In John 6:27, the Father is called God (The Greek word transliterated Theos which translates the Hebrew word for YHWH, or Yahweh). In John 1:1 and 18 Jesus is called the same word, and in Acts 5:3-4 the Spirit is called God (lying to the Spirit is referred to as lying to God) and is the same word used here also. This equality is also seen in activities that only God can be involved in such as creation (Genesis 1:1,2 - Father and Spirit; John 1:3 - Son), Salvation (Isaiah 43:3; 49:26; Colossians 1:13-14; John 3:5-6) and the resurrection (John 5:25-26; Ezekiel 37:14).Another important aspect of the Trinity that isn't necesarilly one of the qualities that it posesses, but needs to be understood to combat such heresies as Subordinationism is the fact that the Members of the Godhead also practice a submission in the sense of roles and functions. In scripture the Father is seen sending the Son as well as sending the Spirit, and the Son is seen as sending the spirit. This mutual submission within the Godhead shows the roles that each member plays, but does not make any of them out to be any less God, the other passages dealing with that issue mentioned above don't allow for it.There are a few references that I could've probably added, but this was kind of a brief overview of how we come to the concept of the Trinity. These three qualities make up the basic definition for the Trinity, so if you are referring to the Trinity as something other than this, than we have a confusion of terms between us.I hope this helps, I will try to answer any questions you might have.

I take from your post that you would fall under the catagory that implies that there is indeed 3 seperate beings, united as 1, am I correct in assuming this? If so, I have absolutely no problem with your belief, I actually have no problem with anyone's belief. I really want to understand the Trinity, however it seems that you use the word Trinity, as I do Godhead. Do you believe that the unity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost being of one will and purpose, as opposed to being of one substance and conscience? In other words, do you think that Jesus was God in the Flesh, or do you think that Jesus was Jesus in the Flesh?

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Angel

Well, if when you say "was Jesus God in the flesh" you mean God the Father, then no I would not say that, although Jesus is God the Son. Like Warfield says in his definition, "within the unity of the Godhead there are three coequal and coeternal persons, the same in substance but unique in subsistence. When Jesus said "I and the Father are one," he seems to be refering to them being one in substance and being. I think you have about as good of an understanding of the Trinity as one can fathom when you say 3 united as 1, and that is the basic definition that any evangelical scholar (including those at the council of Nicea) would agree on. Problems only arise when someone tries to understand one of the major concepts of the Trinity and forgets about the other two (Forgeting Unity leads to Pluralism (Three separate Gods), Forgetting Plurality leads to Modalism (One God, three manifestations (masks)), forgetting equality leads to Subordinationism (Three Beings, some of greater substance (or 'more God') than the others).Being of one conscience isn't absolutely necessary, but that's interesting to think about. All three persons are equally God, meaning that all three persons are perfectly holy, perfectly wise, omniscient and all-powerful. This means that even though they may not be of one conscience, they would all have to be thinking the same things, but then, who can know the mind of God?I think I answered all of your questions, Jesus is God the Son in the flesh, He was technically not named Jesus until the incarnation (until he was born) but I would still like to know if you have a different definition for the word 'Trinity' than what I have explained. I am glad that you are asking questions and trying to understand. I'm still trying to more clearly understand this issue myself, I struggled with it for a long time when I first became a Christian so I did a lot of studying on the issue. I think that we will keep trying to understand it until we get to heaven.

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I would still like to know if you have a different definition for the word 'Trinity' than what I have explained.

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In my experience there are at least two definitions of a Trinty.
1)Jesus, God (the Father), and the Holy Ghost are all one being, the same 'Being' in Flesh and Spirit. In other words a belief that God walked the Earth (as Jesus).
2)Jesus, God, and the Holy Ghost are all three seperate being, but united as one. For example; my husband, my children, and myself are all seperate beings with our own thoughts, and our own personalities, but we are united as one family.I have no problem with the Trinity in the second explanation that I gave. This is simply defining the Godhead, in which you can call it what you like, it is the belief that is important.It is the first explanation that I gave that puzzles me. There is listless scripture that confirms otherwise. I posted a few, but if asked I will be happy to post more. Though in your case, I don't see the need, because from what I gather, you fall into the second explanation. It doesn't matter if you want to call it a Trinity, a Godhead, or a Tree, or a House, or anything else for that matter. As I said before it is the belief and understanding that is important.

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Angel

Good :-) Most books that you read using the word 'Trinity' that are from the major evangelical theologians today are implying the three things that I described. The heresy that you are having trouble with in its fullest sense is called "modalism" and is the teaching that there is one person who we see in three different ways. In combatting this, though, make sure that you don't forget that there is a teaching of oneness as I described above. We can say that God walked on earth, because Jesus is fully God just like the Father and the Spirit are fully God (John 1 says that he was God, not 'a' God).